SPEAKER_03: 0:00

Makeup. I I just had this conversation. We had a Zoom call with with our guys in Scouting the other day. And uh our scouting director said, Hey Burgs, um you know, uh touch on makeup. What are you hunting? What are you, this, that, and the other? And I said, guys, listen, for me, as an organization, we have to have a universal definition within our ranks as to what makeup is. And for me, makeup simply defined, how good does he want to be? Truth. That's it. Character? Outside of everything that can happen. Trevor Bauer has elite fucking makeup. Elite. He might have zero character. He is Barry Bonds had elite makeup. I don't care what kind of teammate, that's a separate question. What kind of teammate? Well, as long as the makeup, the drive as to how good he wants to be is here, they'll fit. They'll fit. Now, when the when the when the makeup of the player, when the skills start to erode and it starts to come close to the character element, okay, boom, that's when we jettison. That's the old Chuck Knoll line. Get rid of him a year sooner rather than a year late. Characters or makeup simply defined, how good does he want to be? I love that. And if you get the character and the makeup right here, you've you've got McCutcheon in his prime, you've got Paul Goldschmidt. That's what you got. Oh, Nolan Arenado. Nolan Arenado, yeah. And um, because and they I kind of got a little hemming and hawing on the call. Like, wait a minute. I go, guys, time out. No, we've been in the postseason seven last eight years. Who was our bullpen ad? And I got the general Matt Arnold, who I tried to hire in Miami. I said, Arnie, we had a bullpen ad two years ago to a playoff team. Who was it? And he said, Well, let's see. I said, I'll cut to the chase. Matt Bush. Matt Bush left two people for dead on a highway in Port Charlotte. I caught his first game at Big League training. There you go. And we all know the story. Matt Bush served close to two years in prison. The fact that Matt Bush got out of prison and got back to the big leagues suggests to me the makeup is elite. The drive to be, the drive to be as good as he wanted to be, it's off the charts. Not character. Okay, that's between him and his maker as to whether or not he's repented, repented with that family. How many guys can go from prison back to the big leagues? That is elite makeup. The drive, how good does he want to be? And to me, that's the separator. And we we oftentimes we conflate makeup with character. Well, he's not a good, I don't give a shit what kind of guy he is. I'll ask you about his character later on.

SPEAKER_00: 2:31

Yeah, because if you surround him with good character, it's gonna work. Ernie Holmes. Ernie Holmes is shooting down fucking choppers.

SPEAKER_03: 2:37

Ernie Holmes is a Hall of Fame player when we were kids growing up. How makeup simply defined how whether you're whether you're a short order cook, whether you're an attorney, a plumber, a contractor, or a or an athlete, how good does he want to be? And no David Eckstein. And again, David Ekstein is makeup in character. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 2:56

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 2:57

And you know the X9.

SPEAKER_00: 2:58

Xtein is taking a I would take both those guys to war tomorrow. Say say no more. Say no more. Yeah, because I I had a four-hour conversation with with Rick, and he sees angles and I see patterns. And I never can explain how I see a guy swing almost immediately, and I could see almost like I can almost project where they're going. And he literally explained to me a moment with Mike Trout about angles. His angles and BP were off. He's gonna strike out 200 times. He almost got fired for it. I'm like, I'm scared to talk about that. He's like, let's walk through this four hours after a 12-hour day. We're sitting around a fire, just diving into this. And I'm like, you can't make this up. And then he shows up the next day and talks about angles about bunning to these kids who never are asked a bunt. And two kids that make the tin because they couldn't lay a bun down.

SPEAKER_03: 3:51

How about that? How good do you want to be? And how and and makeup can change. Like makeup financial financial situation can change makeup. It can change drive, it can change incentive. Setbacks. You had a setback in your career. I remember. I remember you were a pie throw guy. You went from being just fucking elite, boom, downhill, thumb behind ball. You're a pie throw. I remember in spring training. Yep. I remember it. Yep. What the hell's going on?

SPEAKER_00: 4:15

And torn labor.

SPEAKER_03: 4:16

Is that what I knew?

SPEAKER_00: 4:17

I did not know that. But the arm stroke changed. Yeah, the the the the honest guy, like Banny is the one that helped me get past it. And I found a way to throw, and then my arm strength came back my last couple years.

SPEAKER_03: 4:29

I've never met you. Yeah. We just talked about that because I remember that. And I chalked.

SPEAKER_00: 4:33

There were days I couldn't fill my arm.

SPEAKER_03: 4:34

There you go. Never knew what the reason was. All I knew is it didn't evaluate.

SPEAKER_00: 4:38

No one else did either.

SPEAKER_03: 4:39

How about that?

SPEAKER_00: 4:39

Yeah, because I I figured if I could get to 20% hit for power and win baseball games, it didn't matter.

SPEAKER_03: 4:46

But your stroke changed, your back stroke changed.

SPEAKER_00: 4:48

Yeah, I had to go down. Yeah. Because I had to create some type of movement. Because when I went straight there, it hurt. Yeah. And I couldn't feel my hand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 4:54

I was like, where am I? So you went from again the traditional downhill guy, downhill guy, thumb behind ball, boom, hallucinate 5560 arm, to like, okay, I don't see you for a year. I come in spring training. Whoa, what's going on here? Again, as an evaluation. What's going on here? And then I don't know. Yep. I don't know what the fuck's going on.

SPEAKER_00: 5:16

Yep. But yeah, Hurl brought me in and was like, hey, do you do you have the thing?

SPEAKER_03: 5:20

I'm like, oh no shit. Yeah. Because that's what I I made just a you never put down a report.

SPEAKER_00: 5:25

Well, I told Band again. Because I had it. I know. I lived it. Well, Shitty, I mean, everybody has it to a certain extent. And I said, I said, no, I honest to God wake up in the morning and I can't put my arm above my head. And they're like, oh, that's not good. And I'm like, yeah, like I I work through it, and the only thing that works is I go in and I lift and I lift heavy and it breaks up, especially when I pull back. But like I couldn't figure it out. And then Benny was like, let's throw every day. I'm like, yeah, that helps. He goes, I know. I've been there. And he was the only one that knew that it actually hurt. And every day we walked out, and then all of a sudden we're playing the Reds. She runs, I go, It's like that's a stroke. And then Vada ran threw him out. I'm like, that's the stroke. And it was, I was, I was going pull back, I was going down. I was doing the Russell Martin this. I was trying everything to feel where I would end up here because I would end up here and then it would click. Like my shoulder click, and I'd be like, oh god. And just my brain would not allow it until I beat that, then it didn't matter. And then I went to Colorado in just the atmosphere. On certain days I had a freaking bazooka. And then on certain days I didn't. So then that was the battle. And then all of a sudden, when I got hurt in Colorado in 15, I rehabbed for the first time. I did all of it on my own.

SPEAKER_03: 6:44

All the jobs.

SPEAKER_00: 6:45

I did everything on my own.

SPEAKER_03: 6:48

Everything.

SPEAKER_00: 6:49

I came back and I was like, I was like, oh man. And then I threw out 45% of my leagues in 16. Because I've never had a conversation. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, because it was a knock to me. And I was like, I I'm fighting to stay in the big leagues. I'm not going to say I'm hurt. I wasn't going to get cut on. And Dr. Pine is a guy that really made it take off in 14. He goes, You like the Olympic lift, right? I'm like, Yeah, he's like, well, go ahead and do a couple for me. And I did it. And he goes, get it right to your ear. And I caught one. And he goes, I want you to do that every day. I was like, Do that again? Like, get your snatch, get in line here, and it still hurts when I when I'm not warmed up here. He's like, get there, and I promise you, it'll stop hurting. I kid you not. But you wouldn't tell a normal kid that. This guy was getting paid by a Hazm family, flew him in$2,500 a day, and I just happened to be in the right place, right time, to where he just grabbed me and said, You know, your trainer wanted me to talk to you about your shoulder. That's amazing. It helped.

SPEAKER_02: 7:53

We're right in the middle of this conversation. Normally on Hold My Cutter, we introduce our guests. We talk about, but we we joined in in mid-conversation. Two guys that had not met each other, two former catchers. Uh our guest is the great Mike Berger. He's like a brother to me. I've known him forever. We kind of grew up together in this town. And uh Michael McHenry decided uh as our Stogie uh this episode, our featured Stogie, is the Grand Reserve. Yep, because we've got a grand guest, and he was in reserve oftentimes. Always.

SPEAKER_00: 8:24

Uh this is the hide snatcher. It's a hide snatcher, is what it is.

SPEAKER_02: 8:29

Mike Berger, Pittsburgh native, uh, a baseball lifer drafted by the Pittsburgh Pirates, uh, a Pittsburgh native, fourth rounder in 1980 out of Central Catholic. He's got a 1980. It's a belief. 1980, my friend. It's a belease 1960.

SPEAKER_01: 8:44

It's a catcher DNA. You're right. How is that? That's true. Yeah. All you catchers, stay so young. We try our best.

SPEAKER_02: 8:52

Handsome dad. You do not look, you do not look 50. And that's amazing. You really don't. It's funny. I had you at 39. I really was not. Yeah. But anyway, so so Mike Berger, who's uh again, got a great story. He's from uh Pittsburgh royalty in terms of his family. His dad, Jack, was a longtime pirate executive for 35 years. His grandfather, Jack Sr., was a longtime Pittsburgh press uh cartoonist, sports cartoonist. We'll get into that. His family basically came up with a pirate logo. So that you know it's his story's incredible. Uh Berggs, let's start though, with growing up really at Forbes Field as a as a kid. Do you remember Forbes Field?

SPEAKER_03: 9:37

Oh, yeah, I remember the last game that it was the doubleheader against the Cubs. Now you weren't at that, were you? I was at that. You were at the doubleheader. I don't know if you remember this. Were you there? I was not. The final game at Forbes Field was a doubleheader. And at the conclusion of game two, I can't remember who won or lost, but they played the national anthem at the conclusion of game two. Unless I'm making this up. Because there were even if you are, that's kind of no because the reason why is because there was mayhem on the field, people were running out, tearing out tearing down the scoreboard. And again, somebody correct me on this, but I distinctly remember that was what, 1970. Art McKennan?

SPEAKER_02: 10:18

1970.

SPEAKER_03: 10:19

Art McKenna was the PA announcer who was a dear friend of ours and refereed our games at the Shadyside Boys Club. Um, I believe it was Art McKenna who instructed, or maybe had the wherewithal, to play the anthem after game two light the the curtains down on Forbes Field in order to just settle everybody down. Settle everybody down because they were tearing. I was a nine-year-old kid. I remember like it was yesterday.

SPEAKER_00: 10:44

I mean, talk about because he knew everybody would respect the anthem.

SPEAKER_03: 10:47

Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00: 10:48

Stop it.

SPEAKER_03: 10:49

Yeah, stop the chaos, stop the man. Nowadays, standard attention. Yeah, probably. Yeah, just go inferno.

SPEAKER_02: 10:55

Setting shit on fire. How about though? Okay, so sorry for the language. No, no, that's part of the deal. Uh the fact that your dad was with the pirates was a huge reason. Of course, you're a pirate fan anyway, but but you were at Forbes because of your dad. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 11:12

I mean, and then you grew up at Three River Stadium. Correct. With you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at that time, my father was the public relations director for the Pirates. Uh, Branch Ricky hired my father.

SPEAKER_00: 11:23

Did you drop a branch Ricky? Branch Ricky hired my father.

SPEAKER_03: 11:26

Oh, yeah. Yeah, my father was a uh the minor league general manager in Waco, Texas, Brunswick, Georgia, and the New Orleans Pelicans, I believe. And in 51, I believe it was 51, Mr. Ricky brought my father from General Man Minor League General Managership to Pittsburgh to become, because it back in the way they had like seven scouts. So my father was part-time scout, part-time, part-time PR director. There were about seven or eight of them. And um, and Mr. Ricky insisted that my father get his education so he paid for his night school um to complete his college education again in 51, 52. Don't hold me to the year. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Branch Ricky. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02: 12:15

Did you know your grandfather at all?

SPEAKER_03: 12:16

He passed away, you're too young. My brother, my twin brother and I were born in 62. In September of 62, my grandfather passed in November of 62. I've got I've got some senior.

SPEAKER_02: 12:25

I've got some stuff. Uh I looked up uh newspaper stories after his passing. What a great man uh he was. And and how about uh the the ties to Pittsburgh that have stayed and what you've done. First of all, Mike has again baseball lifer, he's been a longtime minor league player, coach, managed in the minor leagues, uh assistant uh in in James Paul Development Assistant GM. Uh you also uh have been with the Brewers, but I think eight years. Eight years. You guys have gone to the postseason, seven of those eight years, I think. No coincidence. You do it again. That run ends now, by the way. Just so you know, that run ends.

SPEAKER_03: 13:07

I understand a very formidable club in 2025. The clubs are the scary team for me, by the way.

SPEAKER_02: 13:13

And the Reds. But you know, but it's great about Mike is that certainly a guy that has never forgotten his roots. He still uh lives here, uh, loves Pittsburgh, loves the people. And what you've done, Mike, I think is so cool. With the uh every year you gather at Christmas time, you host a Christmas party for local baseball scouts from teams from all over the country, but so many baseball people in this town gather each year that one time. It is just the neatest thing in the world. It's just so cool that you do that.

SPEAKER_03: 13:44

Well, yeah, it it thank you for that. It's about 30 years now. We've got to get the fort. I know I'll be there. I'll be getting fort on board because this this this uh this annual gathering continues to grow and we need more youth in here so we can pass the torch. Um, obviously, your your presence means the world, you and and and when blast can make it, it means the world because of your your your the way we all respect you and and just your how how we hold you in such high regard here. But you know, again, every December 19th, 20th, we this year it was past year was at the Clemente Museum. Anyone with was certainly with professional ties, and we have a lot of them in Pittsburgh. I mean, from Tony Lacava to Tim Conroy to Jonathan George, we have a lot of major league scouts. Jonathan George. Johnny George, former teammates, former team. There you go. I did not know that. Yeah. To anyone with just a loose affiliation, whether it be uh, you know, a part-time scout to the high school and college guys that that coach here locally, and uh it swells every year. We have a hundred people, and we've been doing this over 30 years. And again, for it to know that uh believe me, and I'm I'm I'm sincere when I say this, to know that Brownie can show up every year, uh, the pirate people can show up every year. We had a great representation this year, just adds to it. And then we did the Clementi Museum this year, normally it's Station Square. Um, yeah, it just it it it it just it showcases how unique, you know, we're we're regarded as a football community, and rightfully so, but it's a sneaky good baseball community here, and we just want to continue to add to that every day.

SPEAKER_02: 15:22

Baseball was first, no better baseball community. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally know better baseball community than stuff. Um you know, how about going back to your Central Catholic days? This is a former teammate, mentioned Tony Lacava, who's a longtime baseball man himself, assistant to the GM with the Toronto Blue Jays, and and a teammate of Dan Marinos. How good and and your coaches.

SPEAKER_00: 15:41

He dropped it so like subtle, yeah, and Dan.

SPEAKER_02: 15:43

Yeah, yeah, old Dan.

SPEAKER_03: 15:45

Yeah, beginning with the coach, Joe Emmanuel, who Joe was a um was our coach at Central Catholic, was a really talented amateur player himself, had multiple knee surgeries, otherwise, he would have gone on to play professional baseball. But back in the in the 70s and early 80s, he coached Tony La Cava, who for for my money is the most brilliant mind in baseball, bar none. It's on right.

SPEAKER_02: 16:12

And by the way, and and you'll never hear that from him because he's one of the most humble human beings.

SPEAKER_00: 16:16

Well, yeah, that's the best guy.

SPEAKER_02: 16:18

But everybody else says it's by makeup, right?

SPEAKER_03: 16:21

Elite makeup, which we talked about prior to going on. Elite character. Um doesn't have an enemy in his business, and he is he's just he's a brilliant man. He's the most humble person in the world. Yeah, but we had this guy, we had this guy named Dan Marino, who was our when he wasn't never heard of him. Yeah, never heard of him. When he wasn't pitching, he was our starting shortstop. So it's Lacava, Burger, and Marino. Um Burger was drafted in the fourth round in 80. Lacava went to Pitt, was then eventually drafted by the Pirates in 82. And Marino, I think, went on to have a kind of a you know ham and a career in the NFL. Yeah, and Joe Emmanuel was our head coach. And with the exception of Dan, you know, everyone attends this again, this Christmas function every year. We just we don't forget who we are and and where we all came from. And it just a tremendous upbringing.

SPEAKER_02: 17:10

Marino drafted by the Royals, by the way, 1979, fourth round. Fourth round, yeah. Uh so and you stay in touch with these guys, yeah, obviously. Oh, yeah. And and and I'll give you a great story.

SPEAKER_03: 17:21

Uh as it pertains to Merino. So this past August, I you know, Pittsburgh's home, but my wife and I also have a little pad down in Jupiter, Florida. So I'm down in Jupiter in August. My son, my oldest son and his wife live down in Jupiter, and uh I flew down there for probably some AAU stuff. And I said to my son, I said, Let's go down to Miami, let's go watch the Dolphins finish up training camp. Yeah, it'd be great. My son looks like a he's a he's a linebacker. So I called Danny, uh Merino, name dropping, and I said, I said, hey dude, like my son and I, Nick, want to come down. He said, No problem, you know the drill, you know where to park, blah, blah, blah. So we roll up into their training complex. Dan's waiting for us. We've got red carpet. We roll out onto the field, we meet Tua, we meet everybody, high-five. They think my son is like on IR. Oh, man, he's just he's shredded. My 36-year-old son is shredded. So after we get through all the pleasantries, um, again, the moral of the story, um, their head coach is running a uh uh red zone offense. So we start rolling down the field, Marino, my son, and I, and Marino grabs my son Nick, who's about Dan's size. He puts his arm around my son Nick, and he said, Hey Nick, back when I played, red zone my ass. And he effing ass. This was green zone, baby. This is where I made my effing money. Red zone my ass. This is where we made money. And of course, he's pumping in 40 to 45 touchdowns every year in that zone. It's just again, he hasn't changed. He hasn't chased.

SPEAKER_00: 18:57

It's awesome. That's a mindset.

SPEAKER_02: 18:58

Yeah, it's it's a big deal. When he was starting with the Dolphins, Berg's told me, uh, hey, make sure you say I was doing Bill's football, and I'm going down to Miami and they were warming up. And I said, Yeah. Berg's always said, make sure I get burritos before the game. This is an NFL game. And I went up to him and I said, Hey, Greg Brown. I said, No, I'm buddies with Mike Berger. Oh, he loved it. Oh, Burger. He started ripping on you. And anyway, never, never ever.

SPEAKER_00: 19:23

That's when you know someone's close.

SPEAKER_02: 19:24

Yeah, never ripping on you. That's when you gotta have kids. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 19:27

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02: 19:28

But but you you two kind of similar backgrounds, uh, Berger and McHenry, because you were drafted uh as a catcher by the Pirates, right? Fourth round. But uh you got you got hurt early on in your career. You missed part of 80 and 81, you were out in the minor leagues because of a palm injury.

SPEAKER_03: 19:48

Yeah, I had a hand injury. Um, you know, I I went from Central Catholic high school at 17 to catching one merino every week to signing with the Pirates in June of 80, going down to Pirate City and catching 15 merinos every day. And this catching hand, I mean, it exploded.

SPEAKER_00: 20:06

I mean, I just They didn't have that special padding then either.

SPEAKER_03: 20:09

No, they're talking raw meat and you know, put put a slab of steak in there. So long story long, um Dr. Ferguson, who was our orthopedic surgeon with the Pirates at the time, they flew me up to Pittsburgh and I had a I had a uh a nodule in that in that pad right there in my index finger, and they removed that, and there goes the 1980 and partial 81 season.

SPEAKER_01: 20:35

They removed it.

SPEAKER_03: 20:35

Yeah, they removed there was I had a little growth, a little nodule in my in my that was just probably protecting. Oh, it was killing me. Oh and it was killing me because it was a basically, I guess it was a little growth in there.

SPEAKER_00: 20:44

That's literally where it's gonna get hit. Oh that's awful.

SPEAKER_03: 20:47

Yeah, it was horrible pain. So, you know, my my 1980 season is cut short. I go to Major League Spring Training as an on-roster invite in '81. Um, the best memories as an 18-year-old in 1981 going to spring training with the Major League Club was Willie Stargil taking us from McCechney Field over to Pirate City in his freaking Rolls-Royce. No. And he took care of me because I knew Pops when I was a baby. Because of my father. It's on any given day, it's to Culvey, it's Built Madlock, it's Lee Lacey, it's it's um, yeah, I mean, you name who's who, and they throw burger bits in the backseat of his chocolate brown Rolls-Royce. So we go from McKechne Field over to Pirate City before the Minor League's report. Tanner, Chuck Tanner's the manager of the club. You get all that, you know, all that brown clay on your uniforms. Pops puts us back in the Rolls-Royce with all that clay in our spikes. We go back to uh McKechnie Field, you know, change uniform, shower, and get out. That was my highlighted. He lets you get back in the Rolls? Dude, those were the days, man.

SPEAKER_00: 21:50

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_03: 21:51

That was Willie Starchill. That was Willie Starchill. That was unbelievable. Rolls-Royce in 1990. I mean, Rolls Royce. Driving a 1972 Chrysler or uh uh uh um Corvette. No, no, no, no. Um uh it's a Chrysler, it's it thing, it thing was 15 feet long. It was my mom's car. You started with a screwdriver and opened the trunk with a screwdriver. That's the only thing I knew. And then here I am in the fan of Rolls Royce. As an 18-year-old 81. Unreal man. But they had the surgeon.

SPEAKER_00: 22:26

Burger Bits, get in the back.

SPEAKER_03: 22:27

Burger Bits, get in the back with Garner, with Garner. Yeah, Garner was one, Bill Madlock, Teak, you know. That's that's who Stargil was.

unknown: 22:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_03: 22:36

I'm all over the map here.

SPEAKER_02: 22:37

No, no, that that's the whole point of it. That's the whole point of it because there's so there's so much to get to. Before I forget, do you know, do you still hold the uh Central Catholic RBI record, do you think? In my mind, I do. You had it for a long time.

SPEAKER_03: 22:49

I probably still do.

SPEAKER_02: 22:50

93 career ribbies, 42 in one year at for for Central Catholic.

SPEAKER_03: 22:54

What in 12 games? He hit the city. You guys played. Played like 15 games. 15 games, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 22:59

He hit 537 his sophomore year, 444 his junior year, 517 his senior year at Central Catholic. Uh, again, drafted by the Pirates. You go through a handful of years with the Pirates, and then uh spent, I think, five years with the uh a couple years with Montreal. Yep, right? Yep. And then great story. And then Texas. What about the you ended up in Montreal because you became a free agent? Well, I became a minor league free agent.

SPEAKER_03: 23:24

So this this and again, we have time, I guess. No, we do. Yes, we do. And there's a message to all this. So 1986 was my last minor league season with the Pirates. For you paying attention? I am. Okay. The only person I had to answer right now is my wife. She asked me.

SPEAKER_01: 23:38

This is this really not know this podcast. Oh no, she's gonna be so stoked about this podcast.

SPEAKER_03: 23:43

You in particular are gonna appreciate this. So 1986 is my last minor league season with the Pirates. I'm in Nashua, New Hampshire. I had a good year, 250, 15, and maybe 80, and that was a graveyard. Nashua was a graveyard. I think Corey Snyder led the league in home runs that year with 20. I had like 13 or 14. So, 1986, Sid Thrift is a GM for the Pirates, right behind us here at Three River Stadium. The Pirates were one of two teams that year, and you remember this, were in jeopardy of not drawing one million fans. It was the Cleveland Indians and the Pittsburgh Pirates. So I was convinced, based on the year I had, based on the hometown kid factor, that I was gonna get called up close. Because I never got called up. As I told you earlier, there's only two leagues I didn't play in, the American League and the freaking National League.

SPEAKER_04: 24:35

I played in every other league.

SPEAKER_01: 24:37

I've never league at all.

SPEAKER_03: 24:38

I've played in every other league. He's made that speech before, too. Only two leagues on the city. American, I played in all of them. So in 86, I'm going to the big leagues. I'm convinced. You've got hometown guy, Pirates stink, um, and they got to draw a million people. And I could probably put some fannies. Shoot, yeah. I get Dorne Taylor. Remember Dorne Taylor?

SPEAKER_02: 24:59

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 24:59

Dorne Taylor, Lorenzo Bundy, and yours truly get called to Pittsburgh, not as a call-up, but we were all pending minor league six-year free agents.

SPEAKER_00: 25:11

So is that like a taxi squad then?

SPEAKER_03: 25:13

Kind of a taxi squad, no service time.

SPEAKER_00: 25:15

Yeah. I had that. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 25:17

So you can appreciate that. Swift wanted to know, like prior to minor league free agency, he just wanted to last eval on us. So we took bat, Leland was a manager, we took batting practice infield, never activated, blah, blah, blah. Whatever. They did that a lot with those players back then. But we needed to draw a million people in Pittsburgh that year. They didn't get it from me, maybe auditioning and getting that one major league at bat that forever eluded me. They got it by a Bob Seeger concert. Remember Bob Seeger? Yeah. Yeah. Bob Seeger performed the last game at Three River. It was a chicken dinner. Yep, yep. And Bob Seeger. Chicken dinner dinner for all the fans. Chicken dinner and Bob Seeger, the legendary Bob Seeger, performing Three River Stadium. And they got like 35,000 people. They just went over the million mark, and I didn't get called up.

SPEAKER_02: 26:10

But he was there to see Seeger.

SPEAKER_01: 26:12

You get the chicken dinner.

SPEAKER_03: 26:13

I got the chicken dinner. 40. It was 40. Yeah. Yeah. Slightly below average. Yeah. So now again, now here's here's kind of the the other moral to the story. So I go as a free agent. Murray Cook, who was a former pirate executive, is now the GM in Montreal. Murray Cook brings me, because he signed me in 80. Murray Cook brings me as a minor league free agent to Montreal in 87. I go to spring training in Lantana, Florida. I go to Jacksonville, wire to wire in Jacksonville, Florida. Had a great year. I mean, 293 with 25 and a hundo in that old ballpark. In the old ballpark. It's a big year. Exactly. Had two Hall of Famers on that team from wire to wire, Randy Johnson and Larry Walker. Who are they? Who are they? Now, here's where it gets good. So the end of that 1987 season, yours truly is sitting on a big year. Again, 293, 25, and a Hondo. I'm going to the big leagues in that old Southern League ballpark, playing every single game on that schedule.

SPEAKER_00: 27:18

That's not an easy league.

SPEAKER_03: 27:19

As a catcher, not easy. Ron Gamble. You're losing 10 pounds a game. Oh, dude. Thrashed. Thrashed. Beaten up. Abused. Ronnie Gantt played every game on the schedule, too. We lose the championship game five in that Southern League series. Kevin Price, our closer, hangs a 3-2 changeup to Matt Simo. Ball goes over the left field sense. Season over. Bus leaves in 45 minutes.

unknown: 27:45

Over.

SPEAKER_03: 27:45

Done. Over. Now, here's the again, here is the punchline. Season's over. We're in the clubhouse. Two of us, Larry Walker and yours truly.

SPEAKER_00: 27:55

Just sitting there.

SPEAKER_03: 27:56

Just sitting there, drinking beer, rummaging through the manager's game reports to see what he wrote about us, right? Because there were no computers in the day. Larry Walker looks at me and he says, Hey Berggs, did you get travel money or did the team give you a plane ticket going home? And I said, Dude, travel money. Remember in the day you get travel money? Oh yeah. They do calculate the mileage. You might make 50 bucks. That's a lot of money back in 86. Always travel. Exactly. So I got travel money. Walker says, Burgs, I got travel money too, but I don't know what the hell to do with this thing. He lived in Vancouver. I said, bro, no problem. So I got on the phone in the manager's office. I booked Larry. Back in those days, it's just show and go. There's no TSA. I booked him a flight from Jacksonville, Florida to Vancouver. Well, I might as well booked mine too. I called Eastern Defunct Airline. I called Pan Am, Defunct Airline. I called about three airlines that are no longer in business. The fourth airline I called was Continental. Lady answers the phone, Mr. Berger, we can get you from Jacksonville to Pittsburgh at a price that I liked. I could save a few bucks nonstop. Great. Now again, coming off 293, 25, and 100, I'm invincible. We're going places. I start, Ronnie, I start hustling the chick on the phone. I said, listen, I appreciate your booking me this flight. Her name was Leslie. I said, I appreciate your making this reservation. Well, yeah, I'll tell you why you revers are dead. Because I freaking married her.

SPEAKER_01: 29:28

You're very line plus line.

SPEAKER_03: 29:31

I said, Mary the lead. This is seven, nineteen eighty-seven. I said, Listen, thanks for helping me out with this reservation. Now that we've got this squared away, how about you and I go out and have a drink tonight? And I went, Larry and I got she just had a voice, huh? Great voice. Oh, great voice. Great voice, only to be surpassed by she's a beautiful woman. So I said, How about you and I go out and have a drink tonight? She said, sir, I can't do that. And I said, Why are you married? She said, No, I'm in Houston, Texas. I got a 1-800, it's just patching away 1-800. Yeah. She's at 9999 Richmond Road in Houston, Texas, a res agent for Continental. Long story long, two years later to the day we get married. We've been married 35 years. Did you fly to Houston? She flew to Pittsburgh Sight Unseen, which is a story in and of itself in the old airport with me with her picture in the newspaper, a Pittsburgh press with two eyelids cut out, wondering if she's the good-looking one on the right, or or I know what's saying, or the other three on the left.

SPEAKER_02: 30:33

So wait a second, you had the Pittsburgh press you cut out too, so you could see to see just in case. And then by the way, if you didn't like what you saw, it's brutal. You were you were staying with that Pittsburgh pressure pressure to you.

SPEAKER_00: 30:45

You had four women walk around the corner, you're like, please be on the one on the left.

SPEAKER_03: 30:49

Well, no, I had one, I had one with the with the with the Polaroid inside the paper ready to go with my prop. The only problem was they had good tailwinds. As soon as I got in the gate, she's there booking her way back. The gate agent says, Is that him? She turns around. I've got a dip in, I've got a drink on. I think I'm early, and I've got the prop, the Pittsburgh press with two eyes cut out. She's thinking, who in the hell is this guy? We got married. I told her we were going places. Little did she know that was another year in Jacksonville, two years in Indy, five years in Oklahoma City hanging out with Brownie. But the moral of the story is if and I should have gone to the big leagues. Like I literally should have gone to the big leagues that night. If I don't go to the big leagues that night, September 787, I don't have my wife. Unbelievable. I'll have my three kids. Think about that. I don't have my wife or three kids. Wow. And I tell that young players all the time.

SPEAKER_00: 31:46

So you got your big leagues in a different way. Yeah, my big leagues in different one. What a story.

SPEAKER_03: 31:50

Exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah. Because she's the best. She's the absolute best. And I got three great kids. And, you know, and again, just yeah, that's the way it's it's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02: 31:59

Only me. By the way, you know, when when Mike Berger was coming up through the system, uh, people knew about people were kind of watching him. He's a hometown kid. And back then it was the Pittsburgh Press, Post Gazette. That's how you found out about stuff. Yeah. When he became a free agent and signed with the Expo's organization, one thing I love about Mike Berger, since the first day I met him, much like his father, he's got some political correctness in him, but he's kind of like we are. Yeah. He toes the line, but he he he says what's on his mind. And I love it. So he came out and said, because somebody called him, I think it might have been Mike White, the of the press. Go ahead. Who said, you know, hey, what do you what do you think?

SPEAKER_00: 32:38

And go ahead and laugh.

SPEAKER_02: 32:41

You know, the political correct answer, even today, is to say, oh, they gave me my chance. No, but Mike said, you know, there are hard feelings because I was, I didn't think I got the chance, and he did not get the chance. And back then, it probably goes back to branch Ricky, and it certainly holds true today. This is just the way it is in baseball and maybe other sports. But if you and your regime do not draft this guy and raise him to big leagues, you don't have uh an investment in that kid. And in this case, Sid Thrift did not draft him. And Sid Thrift was coming in and he was making changes. And Sid Thrift, he just was not a big burger fan.

SPEAKER_03: 33:22

Yeah, and and you know, and Sid and my father were a part of that 1960 World Series team, albeit in different capacities. And uh it Sid was uh you you can't you cannot knock the work that Sid Thrift did here in Pittsburgh. I mean you know, the influence I'm sure that he had in 60, but then the ultimate influence he had in the 90s, I mean, just those three division winning teams are his tip of the cat. Uh and to Jimmy, who we uh his son, who we who we knew well. But um, yeah, I mean, I, you know, I mean I'm I'm Pittsburgh. I I and I've and I again looking back on it, you know, I was um I was immature. I was, you know, gung-ho, headstrong, hockey mentality. I was immature. I mean, um, I look back at at past tense burgs. Yeah, yeah. You you were immature. I were, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 34:11

Well, yeah, I mean, uh, because I'll tell you what, this guy he was just so affable and gregarious. And I would love when I was minor league with Buffalo. I would, you know, whenever Okie City, the 89, the affiliate of the Texas Rangers, would come to Buffalo, or we would go to Okie City, I'd search him out because I he you could just tell this guy's got broadcaster in the background. He's just he just got the it factor, but but he he he he's funny and stuff like that, but he also is a hot hair, was past tense, was a hot hair.

SPEAKER_00: 34:41

That never leaves. It was hot hairs.

SPEAKER_02: 34:43

There's still that Irish and there were there were times when he would be oh dude, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 34:48

It's like he would yeah, there's the guys you want to go to war with, to be honest. Exactly. And you know, Pete Rose, you know, Pete Rose was um, and I had many. I mean, Dave Parker, Pete Rose, Stargil, Clemente, in in you know, you you take bits and you know, you take bits and pieces of players who uh or or individuals that you admire. You know, Rose was was one of them. Um, and that was just that's who I had a hockey mentality. Um, I think I was a good teammate. I gave you, you know, I gave you a 4-2 down the line. I never dogged you down the line at 4-2, but brother, I would fight at a drop of a hat. And um any idea how many ejections you over the years? My God, I run into Richie Riker now, you know, who's who's a major league supervisor, and he still brings it, I threw your ass out.

SPEAKER_02: 35:34

Usually it wasn't so serious.

SPEAKER_03: 35:35

Yeah, and as a manager, I mean, you know, you mentioned Jeff Bannister earlier. You know, Bandy and I managed together and uh against each other in the in the Sally League, and you know, the running joke was is you know, is is is Berg's gonna uh stay stick around for all eight, or is Brad Arnsberg um gonna manage the last three? And yeah, again, again, that's part of the it's competitiveness, you know. Leland, you know, Leland and Tanner, uh, whether they whether Jimmy knows it or not, whether Chuck knew it or not, were huge influences. I mean, I talked to both of them. Those are great men to look at you know, Chuck in a different way about utilization of of rosters, Jimmy. Because I mean I knew Brownie. You remember when when Leland got the job here back in 85? Jim Who, everyone wanted Billy Martin. Yeah, everyone wanted Billy Martin. Jimmy Leland.

SPEAKER_00: 36:23

Why did they want Billy Martin?

SPEAKER_02: 36:24

Name was a name, name.

SPEAKER_00: 36:26

It was all because of the name. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 36:28

I mean, he was the Billy Martin was like, yeah, he was hit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 36:31

The Pirates brought him. Billy Martin. Jim Leland is in downtown Pittsburgh after getting the job, passing out season ticket brochures. Never forget that. And we all know Katie and we love Katie and his wife, Katie. I mean O'Connor Leland. Jimmy Leland. I mean, uh, and I I you know I revere him. I had a couple years with him as a non-roster invite into spring training, but have followed him closely throughout the years. Huge impact on on you know my methodology, my style. And Tanner, again, the the stories of Tanner, and of course, I got back to Murtaugh. You know, my young brother was named Daniel Edward Berger after Daniel Edward Murtaugh.

SPEAKER_02: 37:13

Isn't that true?

SPEAKER_03: 37:14

But uh just the influence of these people, it's it's it's Pittsburgh. It's a Chuck Knoll, you know, it's again, it's Pittsburgh. It's just such an influence here, and we're blessed to have it.

SPEAKER_02: 37:22

Did you uh so no doubt Leland and Tanner, but would you say that Tommy Thompson was also right up there? Longtime minor league manager.

SPEAKER_03: 37:30

So good of you to mention TNT. Uh Tommy Thompson was a career minor league manager. Um he had me in Montreal when I went over as a free agent, um, had me in in Oklahoma City when we beat you guys in the 1992 American League Championship Series. Terry Collins was managed. We beat you four games in a row. Um I hired Tommy then when I was the boss in Montreal and Tommy was out a year. I hired him as a scout. And, you know, I used to say, okay, you know what? The whip's in the other hand, you know, brother. I said, I'm beating your ass right now. Because he he was Leland. He had he revered Jimmy Leland. Tommy Thompson revered Leland. He was he he cloned himself after Leland. And it was kind of neat for a couple of years to have the whip in the other hand and start beating him. You're gonna go see that high school kid in Greenville, you're going to Farragut to see that guy in Tennessee. And he did it because he was a machine. And yeah, and we lost Tommy. Yeah, and I it's so good of you to mention him because near and near and dear.

SPEAKER_02: 38:28

Yeah, near and dear. I think you you managed for a while. I think he left for health readers, a family matter. Didn't you manage Okie City? I know you were a player coach for a while. Yeah, managed for the game. But you managed for a handful of games too.

SPEAKER_03: 38:38

Managed for a handful of games and like to say those are the games we won. No, I mean we we won the division that year at 74 and 70, and we wound up beating uh Tim Wakefield, Kevin Young, et al. just a Kevin Blankenship, just a talent, Keith Osick.

SPEAKER_02: 38:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_03: 38:54

We beat you guys four in a row. And and and um, you know, four, you can appreciate it was it was makeup. We weren't the most we had Steve Balbone, granted. We had some talented dudes, but I mean we had a team, and and you guys had a team too. You had a team and you had Terry Collins, who was you know just a machine. Another fireway manager. Yeah, we went in makeup, man. We just say, We're who are these guys? You know, we're gonna beat these guys, and we beat you four in a row. We beat Wakefield, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 39:17

Okay, you've said that like five times. We know that. Uh it feels good though. No, no, it doesn't feel good. Not from this end, not from not from Buffalo's end. Yeah, Buffalo doesn't feel good. That's right. Another lose. I know, I understand. I ruined Buffalo. Yeah, yeah. So how about how about when you became a player coach? That would that that that those days are kind of over. You know that you don't see that much. No, you don't.

SPEAKER_03: 39:40

You weren't pro bowl. Well, you know, the compliment was so like it was probably 90, it was 90 or 91 in Oklahoma City. I'm in triple A. I'm catching. Um, I bat I caddied Pudge Rodriguez that year when he went up and I went down, and that's a great story in and of itself. But um, so at the end of the uh 90 or 91 season in Oklahoma City, I'm hitting 315. I'm 315, I'm doing everything, I'm the jack of all. I'm catching, I'm playing left, playing first, blah, blah, blah. Here we come to the end of the season. I'm going to the big leagues. This is my call-up. My second or third ultimately missed call-up. So I get a call into the manager's office, and Marty Scott, God rest his soul, Marty was our farm director. Marty's on the phone. And you remember back in the day, the farm director would usually call and let you know you're going to big leagues. So Berggs, come into the club. I come in the manager's office. I go in and Marty's on the phone.

SPEAKER_00: 40:34

And you're like on a high.

SPEAKER_03: 40:35

Dude, I'm going to big leagues. Yeah. I'm going to big leagues. And I missed like three other opportunities. So Marty's on the phone, and Marty says, uh, hey Burgs, listen, um, great year. Appreciate everything you did. Appreciate you going back down to Tulsa when Pudge got called to the big leagues. Just want to let you know that um we'd love to have you back next year as a player coach. Oh. And I go, bro, what the hell? Player coach. I thought you were calling me to go to the big leagues. No, the budget, the this, the that. Listen, we think enough of you that we want you to consider it this winter. You can either sign as a minor league six-year free somewhere. If that happens, fine. If you get released in spring training, you got to wait and space here in Oklahoma City, or you can take the offer right now. It's your call. So I talked to my dad, who was again, again, his his background in the business. And I talked to my dad, and I didn't have playing out of me, and you can appreciate that. I'm 30 years old. I can still play. Play at a high level, hit 315. Yeah. You got to get it out of here. Exactly. So I talked to my old man, and he said, Listen, just let me tell you something. My dad always told me, he said, he said, You're the Bill Cower of Major League Baseball. He said, I think you're going to be a manager someday. I think you're the Bill Cower of Major League Baseball. He said, Um, if that man, Marty Scott, thinks enough of you to provide you with that option, he said, I know you want to play, and we love seeing you play, and I know you can play. But if that option's available, I think you get your play your coaching career launched maybe a year sooner than a year later. And that's what I did. Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 42:08

Well said. Good advice. Yeah, great advice. But but what's that like? Yeah, what is it like? Oh, dude, I got to be so.

SPEAKER_03: 42:15

I got Steve Bell Boney. So I go into that that year as a quote unquote player coach. I had 20 at bats. I think I blew my back out of Louisville, taking a swing one year. Because I, you know, again, you got to commit to coach or play. To me, it was one or the other. You got to dedicate to one or the other. I get my BP on flips, side tosses, whatever. My focus is a coach. I got Steve Belboney. I got Jim Presley. I got Jeff Fry. I mean, you know, I got, again, in our world, I can't, yeah, they're they're big leakers. Yeah, they're iconic dudes, and I can't shortchange these guys. So I sent my devotion towards being the best coach I could be under Tommy Thompson, under Oscar Acosta. And when the playing time developed, so be it. Um, and you know, I never thought of that until you guys brought up it doesn't happen anymore. I was a player coach in I never thought of that. Player coach in triple A. I think I hit 300 that year too, in about 20 at bats. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 43:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 43:10

But the focus was on doing my part as a coach in order to jumpstart the career to what I ultimately thought was gonna be a major league manager.

SPEAKER_00: 43:20

You know crazy? Yeah, before I took this job, the Dodgers offered me something similar. It was more behind the scenes, but they wanted me to sit in the meetings, they wanted to partake in a lot of the development stuff and really try to dive into what it would be like to maybe transition out. And I made the decision to come here because I wasn't ready if I was gonna walk away from the game, I couldn't have cleats on.

SPEAKER_04: 43:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 43:41

You know, I knew that. Yeah, I knew I'd want to jump back on the field and figure out a way to win. But yeah, kudos to you because that that was a tough decision. It was really tough. And I'm with you. I would have had to go one or the other. And you probably played well because you just enjoyed your time with the game.

SPEAKER_03: 43:54

I did, I did, and I found a way to stay to stay ready if you know. If Balbone needed to blow it first or Ray Stevens, whoever was catching needed to blow it behind home plate. But the focus had to be on, and again, it's so much of it had to do with my father. Because again, my father tagged me. You know, he said, You're gonna be the Bill Cower. I thought that the Bill Cower. And um, you know, I had a crack, which you talk, I had a crack at managing in the big leagues. I I walked away from that. Um, but it was the best advice he ever could have gotten. And again, I it's so cool, you know, because I never really thought of that. There, it doesn't exist anymore. Player coaches. It should.

SPEAKER_00: 44:33

Think about the complement, right? Yep, absolutely. It's like saying, hey, we want to kind of groom you in a way that could make you great at what we believe you'd be great at. Yep. I think that's incredible. I I wish they would do it more often.

SPEAKER_02: 44:43

Yeah, I did that for a couple years, but then then you were a full-time coach the final year there with Okie City. Full-time coach.

SPEAKER_03: 44:49

I was a hitting coach in AAA for two, maybe three years. And then you managed in Charleston, didn't you? Managed in Charleston, South Carolina. Yeah, the River Dogs.

SPEAKER_00: 44:56

That's a really cool place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 44:58

Oh, it was the old park.

SPEAKER_00: 44:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 44:59

Maybe it was the old park. It was the old Rainbow Stadium at the Citadel, where it was, I think it was 285 down the right field line. Um, Walt No Neck Williams had managed the club the year before. I roll in. Yeah, I'm gonna change the fortunes here. Um, we lost 90 games, but but we had Steven Larkin. We had three big leaders. Fernando Tettee Sr. was my third baseman. Uh, I had a valuable Leland lesson that year, too, which I think may have, you know, in a in a in an indirect way helped Tatis in his maturation. What was it? I mean a confrontation, you mean? Uh Reed Nichols was my farm director that year. Okay. And Fernando Tatis Sr. was my third baseman. He's hitting 195 going into May. It's like early first week of May, he's hitting 195. I got to hit him cleanup. I move him up in the one hole. Why? Because I remember Jim Leland moving bonds up into the one hole. Again, the Jim Leland Chuck Tanner effect. So I moved him up to the one hole because again, he was far and away the most impactful player. Andy Barquette was a big leaguer in that lineup. There were a couple others, but you can see it. You could see it. Bingo. You could see it. You just knew it was going to click 19-year-old when he figures shit out. It's it's so I moved him up the one hole. Reed Nichols is my farm director with Texas. Reed looks at the box scores. He says, hey, uh, I noticed that uh, and Reed didn't miss anything. He said, I noticed you have Tatis hitting in the one hole. I think against Roy Halliday in in Hagerstown. And what are you doing? He's hitting 195. And I said, Reed, you know, I said, I just remember Leland doing this with bonds and the reason, not just doing it, but the reason behind it. If there's going to be a fourth at-bat, or God forbid a fifth at-bat in that game when that lineup rolls over, I want it going to what I thought was the best player. And it wound up being Tatiste.

SPEAKER_00: 46:48

And the confidence I probably had to get.

SPEAKER_03: 46:50

Oh, dude, springboard. And through no fault, it's just springboard. He went from hitting 195, early five-week swoon. He hit 302, set a Southern League record in doubles. Now, mind you, Andrew Jones was in the league that year, Vladdy Guerrero was in that league that year. Todd Helton was in the league that year. I mean, this was a star-studded league in a sally in 95. So again, that's my little put your head down at night feeling, you know what, I may have aided and abetted in along with my coaching staff of one. One coach, dude, one coach, one trainer. Come on.

SPEAKER_00: 47:23

That's the way it used to be. That's what it used to be.

SPEAKER_03: 47:25

One coach, one trainer. And on any good day, I'm driving a bus. Um but you know, yeah. And making the reservations. And making the reservations. And he winds up hitting, winds up hitting 302 with 44 doubles or something, probably hit 15 to 20 pumps. And and uh, but yeah, again, Jim Lee, Jim Leland influence, a Chuck Tanner influence that year in how I was going to manage my bullpen because I love managing people.

SPEAKER_00: 47:49

And that that's what I think people forget because the analytics kind of take away from that. Yeah, and you manage that person saying, man, maybe if I move him up here, exactly springboard him. And the confidence that gives you, I said that about Jack Selinski last year. I wish they would just move him to the leadoff spot. And right, wrong, or indifferent. I just saw a kid that I couldn't hear a bad thing about personality-wise. I really enjoyed talking to, super articulate and understanding what he's trying to do, but just could not get it to happen.

SPEAKER_04: 48:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 48:17

But he was walking a lot and he could run well. He's a good base runner. Like maybe if we put him at the leadoff spot. And obviously they made their decision, but it's just a way to look at it and say, maybe if, and whether whether it would have worked or not, who knows?

SPEAKER_03: 48:30

Three springboards. There's three stages, three stages, uh, in my opinion, and again, not an original thought, but the three stages to the springboard to success in any in any vocation. Confidence, momentum, equals success.

SPEAKER_00: 48:45

Amen.

SPEAKER_03: 48:46

Confidence, momentum, success. So Winsky's a great example. And they've done a great job with him. I mean, I think he's had his peaks and valleys. He's probably changed. I know he's changed his swing over the years, but yeah, breed confidence, pump confidence into a broadcaster, punt confidence into a player, into a scout. Wow. Pump, and again, you can't be blowing hot air up your skirt. Pump legitimate confidence. That's the springboard to momentum. And once you've achieved the two, boom, you get out of the freaking way, success takes over.

SPEAKER_00: 49:14

But going back to your word makeup, which is why I wish I would have managed in the big lace. Go back, go back and define makeup. We were we talked about this uh off-air. Define what makeup is to you because I think it's brilliant. And that's why I picked a guy like Jack Sowinsky, because I'm talking high makeup by your definition and high character. And those are the guys I always, as a player, would try to cling on to, and especially if they were getting pushed away. Yeah, because I wanted to pump confidence into them because I knew if they were better, our team was better.

SPEAKER_03: 49:45

You know, character it to me, it's self-explanatory. You know, again, I have a daughter. I don't, you don't you don't know you don't have a daughter.

SPEAKER_01: 49:51

You have a daughter. Oh, just son. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 49:53

You have a daughter?

SPEAKER_01: 49:53

I have a goddaughter.

SPEAKER_03: 49:54

Okay, goddaughter. Okay. You know, in our in our again, in our vocation, do you want them marrying your daughter? You know, that's the that's the character.

SPEAKER_00: 50:02

Greatest compliment I ever got from a coach.

SPEAKER_03: 50:04

Yeah, the character.

SPEAKER_00: 50:05

He said he's a guy I want to marry my daughter.

SPEAKER_03: 50:08

Again, recent example, and there are plenty of them. I'm gonna pick this one out because I have I have history. Paul Goldschmidt, I want Paul Goldschmidt, and I I got a great son-in-law, but if if I didn't have the great son-in-law, I want Paul Goldschmidt to marry my daughter. Because I know Paul Goldschmidt from the day we signed him in Arizona. Makeup is separate and a part of character. Makeup simply defined. How good does he want to be? How good does he want to be as a plumber, a contractor, a lawyer, a ball player? How good does this son of a gun want to be? Is he willing to go the extra mile, pay the extra price? Does he want to beat the ass of that opponent every day? Do you want to be the best second baseman on the field that day? Character or makeup simply defined, how good does he want to be? I have been around some elite makeup guy, and we all have, and you've been doing this longer than any of us. I've been around some elite makeup guys. They want to beat your freaking ass. First one there, last one to leave. They're gonna figure out what they didn't do right yesterday. That you don't want marrying your daughter. They're uh tainted character people. You don't want them in your neighborhood.

SPEAKER_00: 51:09

Because it's weird to get there.

SPEAKER_03: 51:10

Exactly. I want these guys in my foxhole. I'm talking about nine innings, 160 who can't. I want this guy on my field. Separate apart. The greatest line I ever heard was John Wayner. Just define the two. I asked Rock maybe 20 years ago. It's probably been 20 years. I said, Bonia and Bonds. How long has that been? 30?

SPEAKER_02: 51:32

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 51:32

I said, and again, they're at their head, and I played against both of them. I hired and fired Barry in Miami as a hitting coach. I was a part of that process. I said, what's the difference, Rock, 30 years ago between Bobby Bonia and Barry Bonds? And Rock, if you're what you will be watching, I'm gonna throw you under the bus. He said, Bergs, it's plain and simple. He said, if I broke down on the parkway at three o'clock in the morning. Oh, you good. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because I can walk you, both sides. Yeah, go ahead. I love this. Yeah. He said, I broke down the parkway at three o'clock in the morning and I called Bonilla. But bro, you okay? You know, stay on the shoulder of the road. You know, I'll call, I'll be there, and you know what? Probably wouldn't show. Bonds would say, you know what, bro? It's three o'clock in the morning. I'm trying to get some fucking sleep. And um, see you tomorrow. All right. Don't get hurt. It's just, you know, again, that's just cut and dry. It's about, it's about Barry getting his sleep, being it's no slight on Bobby Bo. And I love Bobby because I was with him in the Minor Leagues, but it's just, it's cut and dry. It was about Barry being Barry needed his sleep. Barry knew what he had to do. Not that Boat, not that Bo didn't, but it was cut and dry with Barry. Okay. Maybe that's a character flaw. I don't know. But you knew what you were getting with Barry. 156 games a year. You're gonna call out Jeff King when King's not playing. Um, blah, blah, blah. I'm going off on a tangent. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02: 52:52

Because my argument with those guys has been well, the the the question has been, what do you prefer? You get to call, you call Bobby Bo, and he says, Yeah, I'll be there, and you're waiting, you're waiting, and he's not gonna show. You call Bonds, he goes, get the heck. I'm not gonna go get you for hang up the phone on you. What do you prefer? At least this guy tells the truth. I say I prefer Bobby Bo. He gives me hope. Yeah, the heck with it, man. At least I got some hope.

SPEAKER_00: 53:13

So as a as a player, I've got that guy's cut and dry.

SPEAKER_02: 53:16

But but yeah, that's interesting. I get the the I've often wondered this about the bonds because I've I've certainly had my issues with him. I was in the front office. I saw him as a rookie. I remember driving around winner doing different appearances and so on. You could tell he was different. As time went on, he was he was really not a good human being. I mean, I I think everybody everybody is redeemable, and maybe he's done that. You know, maybe he's he's changed. I don't know, but at least when I knew him, he was not a good person, just wasn't. That's just a fact. People like it's a touchy situation, but he was just not good. Yeah, some of the things he did to people, I saw it. It was bad stuff. But can you be that great and be a really good guy?

SPEAKER_03: 54:05

You know, maybe we can be.

SPEAKER_02: 54:07

If you're if you're again, Paul Goldschmidt, Eric Nolan, no, no, okay, but but but I'm sorry to those guys, but Bonds is elite beyond that. Bonds is the greatest of greats now in other sports. I mean, Mario Lemieux and Sidney Crosby character people off the charts, and they're the greatest hockey players.

SPEAKER_03: 54:25

My dear friend, here's Pittsburgh Bay, D Rizzo. Uh D Rizzo has represented Sidney Cross business. He was 12 years old.

SPEAKER_02: 54:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 54:32

And I mean, D's a dear friend of mine is right here in Greenfield, and he's told me for 30 years, he said 20 years, whatever, he said, this is the greatest kid in the world. First one there, last one to leave. Never forget the name. So again, when you have when you have the two, so it can't have go back to 12 years old.

SPEAKER_00: 54:47

Yeah. Yeah. I think who bonds was around. I mean, you think about what Millie Willie Mace had to go through.

SPEAKER_02: 54:52

Well, and his dad wasn't the greatest.

SPEAKER_00: 54:54

Yeah, but like they went through a very tough time too, where he came up and he probably had resentment. But there's a book by Tim Grover. He trained Michael Jordan. Yep. This guy was relentless. He wrote a book called Relentless, and he said there's different versions. There's there's closers, right? And those are the guys like Bonds, like Jordan, and then there's cleaners. I think I don't know if I may get this wrong, cleaners, excuse me. Cleaners are the bonds and the Jordans. The closers are the guys that are great. He he said LeBron James is a closer, but he's not a cleaner. Kobe Bryant was a cleaner because Kobe Bryant would disregard everything in the world to win. But I think he redeemed himself and became somebody completely different, was able to separate, put on a cape as black mamba, and then go home and be the dad. Because he became a great dad, became a great human being. But there's a long time where he wasn't there, Troy Tulitzki. He was a cleaner. But you played with Tulitzki. I did. Yeah. But you didn't want him hanging out with Nolan Arenado at the time, but he's completely shifted. Now he's a coach. This is a coach of Texas because he's seen that not everybody can be a cleaner. And it is very difficult because you are by yourself. You were at a mountaintop and you're saying, I'm going to stay here at all costs. And seeing that, those guys play, but you have to surround them with the Clint Barmistes. Yep. With the guys that are different. Todd Hilton was a cleaner. Like he was not somebody I would call and be like, Todd, I need help. Because he'd be like, Cool, figure it out. And but I learned a lot from those guys because my personality was I'm taking my shirt off your back, I'll be there in 10 minutes, disregarding the game the next day because I thought about it as a team first mentality. Yep. And everybody's different. That's why the collective team will always win in baseball. And at his point, I would take a Barry Bonds knowing that I could handle a Barry Bonds meeting where he's at.

SPEAKER_02: 56:41

I remember when uh when I first joined the broadcast team off the air, I would say to other guys who knew of Bonds, and I said, he'll never win. He'll never, his team will never win a championship because of his character. Now they got to the World Series and didn't win it, but I said, you know, and I didn't, what did I know? I'm just talking from a from a fan standpoint. Maybe it was something I didn't want him to win because I knew who he was.

SPEAKER_00: 57:05

But going to you guys, let me ask you guys that. Then take take a Dave Parker, because I would say he was probably someone.

SPEAKER_02: 57:12

That's another guy whose character has been redeemed.

SPEAKER_00: 57:13

But they won.

SPEAKER_02: 57:14

It's incredible.

SPEAKER_00: 57:15

But they won when he was here. Why?

SPEAKER_02: 57:18

Well, we were a part of this.

SPEAKER_03: 57:19

I'll go ahead and defer in.

SPEAKER_00: 57:21

Because he was probably the bonds of the era then.

SPEAKER_03: 57:23

Well, not as good, but but he he was a galvanizer. Now, again, in in in the 70s, now my brother was a bat boy on the visiting side. Um, I would take a bus down here every day. I'd take BP with the club. I was a high school freshman, sophomore, junior. Joe Lynette would throw me BP. Oh, yeah, dude. I mean, again, when I tell you my pirate roots, it's yeah. I mean, I would come down every day, I would take a bus to Gateway, like Rock was saying. He'd take a bus to Gateway Center, walk across the road. I'd do the same thing. Only my father worked in the front office. I'd go in, I'd go in, I'd drop my my book bag that I never looked at those books from Central, drop the books off moments, office, went to Pirate Clubhouse. Hooley.

SPEAKER_00: 58:04

You got a PhD in baseball, though. PhD in baseball.

SPEAKER_03: 58:06

Hooley'd have a uniform for me. And um, my old man had a rule the only time you're on that field is if you're working. So Joey Lynette would throw me BP, and then I go out and shag. And I went around Parker, Stargil, Garner, uh, Lacey, all of Lee Lacey back there. And um, but Carly, Bly Love, and Nicosia, Ott. I mean, I got on and on. Dave Parker, and I took this into my later years and into my you know administrative years when I'm a scouting director and blah, blah, blah. Dave Parker, he was like, in many ways, he was he was like the the the way the steel, like a Joe Green would galvanize a team. I mean, Parker brought black, white, Latino. I mean, it he brought them all together and he'd have punchlines for everybody. He'd he'd jacked. But he'd post. He'd post and he'd deflect. If ever the if ever the the flame got too hot on one particular player, he'd deflect it. I like authentically deflect it. Hey, come talk to me. Come talk to me. And uh, I mean, and I've left him out again in my little world, iconic role model in my life. Like I shed a tear when I when my brother and I my brother called me. I was in, I was at the winter meetings in Dallas when Parker was was announced. My brother called me instantaneously, and we like we both cried like Parkway? Are you kidding me? Going to the Hall of Fame. Oh dear lord. Like, and I don't know if you have the scene because we never talked about this.

SPEAKER_02: 59:37

Well, glue guy. And again, multifaceted, we've talked about that with personal, we've talked about with Candelaria, we've talked about guys who Parker was run out of this town, and it's amazing what time does time heals all wounds. We are forgiving society, and that's the way it should be. And so the this this this community, this town, the this state of baseball has forgiven Parker because he was in a bad state, he was a bad way, he got out of shape here, he got the drug situation, they ran him out of town, the pirates sued him of that contract. Yep, bad, bad blood. But again, years pass and uh and now he's beloved in this town. And it's great.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:15

Candy, another I'm leaving so many guys off. I again, John Candle. I I I idolize John Candle and he would never won more than 14 or 15. I mean, if there was one guy, I'm telling you, if there's one guy you want to go out there and win a game, it's Candyman.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:32

I mean, that slider, it's I've heard so many people say that. Dude, it's it was Carlton Esquece. Until he won it out.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:38

Until he won it out. Until he won it out. Then you wanted him out because he didn't want anything to do with it. Yeah, he was all in or all out.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:43

But that face, and we we all hunt that, you know, especially in scouting. We hunt that face, that look, that terror, that terror. Like it screw you is my ball game. For as long as I want to go, it's six, seven, eight, eight, as long as I want to go. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:56

I look at that every guy that steps on the mountain. Is he a psycho?

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:00

I want my psycho. Madlock, idle, fully, pestilent, at odd. I mean, Nikosha pummeling that fan.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:07

What a is there a better platoon duel you can think of behind the plate in our lifetime than the left-handed hitting Ott, the wrestler from toward Eastern PAs and Steve Nikosha, the right hand? I mean, what a what a combination. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:21

I mean, again, and it goes makeup to this, to where this subject started 20 minutes ago. Makeup. Makeup simply defined. How good does Ed Ott, John Candelaria, Bill Madlock, Willie Stargil, uh, David Eckstein, Paul, how good do these guys want to be? Character, we'll deal with that shit.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:41

That's what that's what Leland always says. I always believed for a long time when I was in the front office, I always believed, and I said that to Leland once, well, we had just a bunch of blue-collar guys on this team. We'll draw in this town because that's all they care about. And he said, and he's right, he goes, I don't he says this to this day. Give me a 25 jerks. I'll teach them PR in the winter.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:01

Yeah, exactly. Right. But to Leland's point, he's different. You need a Leland to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:08

Because he got a PhD. Terry Francona has a PhD.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:11

Well said, and people.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:12

Chuck Tanner had a PhD. And I'm leaving Bill Belichick, PhD. How does Randy, how does Randy Moss, and again, Hall of Fame dude, how does Randy Moss leave all his inadequacies behind?

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:23

Yeah. Good point.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:24

Go to Bill Belichick.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:25

And all of a sudden, he's not just great.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:27

Yeah, so it transcends if he's on TV now. It transcends baseball. And I'm leaving exemplary example. Marv Levy comes to mind.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:36

I never thought about that. Marv Levy, the Bills, I don't know. I know it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:38

But to your point, it takes that right human to be out in front. Exactly. I love Clint Hurdle. I don't think he could have done it. You know what I mean? And it takes a certain human being to step out in front of the. Jimmy Johnson. Yeah, you can manage these personalities. Exactly. Because that's all it's there's a reason why it's called a management. You asked me earlier if I'd want to manage. I said, when I'm ready, possibly. But it is managing people. It's not managing the game. Your bench coach manages the game. You're managing the PR, you're managing everything around, and you're making sure that this guy knows his value on a daily basis, good, bad, or ugly. If you can be able to do that, like I love the rock story. You know, hey, Rock, I heard you were coming.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:21

Who, by the way, would make a great manager.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:24

Oh.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:24

Great manager.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:25

Well, you know this, you know the story about he was interviewed for the pirate job years ago. I'm a brewer. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:31

And I think he'd do it if he could tell the truth.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:33

Many years ago, and and uh was told by someone who was in the interview that he knocked it out of the park, the interview, which is not a surprise. But but uh they wanted a bigger name.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:42

I got I got again, I've been doing this 45 years. Um, and I'm gonna I've got I've got 80 instincts. 80 on the grading stuff I've got 80 instincts. Yeah, you do. I do. I believe I got 80 instincts.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:53

I have 100 believe that, and I just mentioned. He's got the it factory.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:57

John Wayner, John Wayner. I'd go to Foxhole with you tomorrow. Oh, yeah, and and and you'd survive. I promise you you'd survive. Vice versa, yeah. Yeah. Uh oh, I know that because I've scouted you. Um John Wayner, I mean, it's like I don't know if he's ever managed it. I know he's managed a checkbook because he's got a couple of restaurants.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:12

Well, he did some managing with Altoona.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:13

Yeah, in Altoona, I saw that. Yeah, but I'm telling you, it's like instincts. It's it's it's instincts telling me like, hello, if you ever want to do it, you know, just open up a checkbook. No slight on anyone who's doing it currently, whether it's here or somewhere else. If you ever wanted to do it, boom, bang. Done. Completely agree. Done.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:32

And we have we're just we're just touching the surface. Hope you enjoyed this episode. But make sure you check out the next one that we did with Mike Berger earlier. It's a doozy. I mean, it is a doozy. Mike Berger, the man on Hold My Cutter.