Speaker 1: 0:00

We're here, just a few blocks away from PNC Park burned by Rocky Patel, and we've got a very special guest. As always, we kick off, hold my Cutter with the featured smoke, and it is the Dark Star. Yeah, one of my favorite things about the city of Pittsburgh is that a guy that's become a yinzer he calls himself a—he combines y'all and yinzer with these y'alls are is, uh, michael mckenry who uh, we'll toast to him we will and we'll look forward to having him back and on his show one of these days.

Speaker 2: 0:33

By the way, I hope so, because didn't he?

Speaker 1: 0:35

encourage you to come on hold my cutter he's been talking to me about this.

Speaker 2: 0:38

For how long has the show been?

Speaker 1: 0:39

going on a good year. Plus yes from the show number 75 already from the get-go.

Speaker 2: 0:44

So the fact that it took 75 shows to have me on. Michael shame on you, but anyway.

Speaker 1: 0:48

Shame on you.

Speaker 2: 0:49

And now I finally come and he's not here.

Speaker 1: 0:51

But it's all good and it made for a better program.

Speaker 2: 0:53

I got to use his mug.

Speaker 1: 0:54

Yeah, his mug. Thank you, Jonathan.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Thank you. I don't know to teach. Both my parents were teachers. I'm like I don't really, I don't think I want to do that. It's like those who can't do, right you?

Speaker 2: 1:06

know, or or broadcast as the case may be and so I always knew I wanted to do something around sports, whether it was talking about it or writing about it, and writing was the direction I kind of headed in. Yeah, in high school we had a newspaper and like, and I knew that I wanted to do something along those lines. I had a, an amazing journalism teacher in high school, uh, who kind of was very encouraging and uh, then when I went to college, we had a really good daily newspaper and I was a sports editor there. Um, there've been some really good sports writers who've come out of there. Kenny Rosenthal also went to Penn.

Speaker 1: 1:41

How about that? How about going to Penn? Yeah, doggone it. What's up with that? I got lucky.

Speaker 2: 1:48

You know, a lot of the road from northern New Jersey to the University of Pennsylvania was very well worn A lot of New Jersey kids there. But I really majored in the newspaper there. I was a sports editor there. But even then I would have gone wherever you know, wherever the jobs were. Uh, you know, even back then journalism jobs weren't always so easy to come by and uh, I just got lucky that my first jobs were, you know, for newspapers and things like that and I bounced around a bunch and kept going from there, Then your your first break in baseball came.

Speaker 1: 2:25

how?

Speaker 2: 2:26

Well, I was working at the New York Post but I was like a low-level, I was an agate clerk, and agate is the word for small type. So back when people remember newspapers and there would be the pages with the box scores and the statistics, I would paginate those, you know, I would line it up and, uh, I knew it was time for me to make a change, when I was having dreams about oh, I hope this box score fits here and it's sort of like Tetris.

Speaker 1: 2:53

Yes.

Speaker 2: 2:54

And uh, but I got to get out and write a decent amount. So my first break came when major league baseball was looking to hire its first ever full-time staff writer back in 1999. They had never had one, there was a staff of three. They used a lot of freelancers and writers around the country and I had actually interviewed for a job with Major League Baseball's publishing department the year prior but hadn't gotten that job. But I guess made enough of an impression that the director of publishing handed my resume down and in April of 1999, I started and I've been there ever since.

Speaker 1: 3:27

What was that? Like Jonathan, the first day on the job there.

Speaker 2: 3:30

Well, it was crazy because when we first started it was in the commissioner's office, so I would go up to the whatever floor it was. My memory says it was the 31st floor. I may be making that up, but who?

Speaker 1: 3:42

knows, it doesn't really matter.

Speaker 2: 3:44

And every day I would walk by the czar of disciplines office. Back then that was Frank Robinson.

Speaker 1: 3:53

Oh, my God.

Speaker 2: 3:53

So I would walk by hall of fame or Frank Robinson's office every single day and he'd be reading his newspaper and he'd put his newspaper down and give me a little wave. And I'm like come on and I remember the first time I did it I did like a triple take, you know kind of like wait is it Frank Robinson?

Speaker 2: 4:12

But, craig, it's even crazier than that, because in those early days a lot of talent came out of those offices. His like executive assistant like the guy who answered his phone is now the general manager for the San Diego Padres, aj Preller. He would come over and want to talk to me about like the third string catcher and double A here. I'm like you're not going to be here very long. But Jeff Breidich worked in those offices too. He ended up being the general manager of the Rockies. It's kind of nuts, but I remember. Yeah, aj Preller was Frank Robinson's assistant when I first started there.

Speaker 1: 4:47

So you go by his office and you realize okay, now I am indeed in the big leagues, obviously, walking by Frank Robinson every day. Do you remember the first thing that you wrote and how cool it was to see it published? Or one of your first.

Speaker 2: 5:03

I don't remember the first thing. I remember the first time I traveled, uh, for this job. This was the year that, uh, the baltimore rails went to cuba. Now, I didn't get to go to cuba, I started like two weeks too late, but the first thing I ever did is I went to baltimore when the cuban team came to baltimore. So I don't remember what I wrote, but I remember like, wow, this is the first time I'm traveling for baseball. Um, so, yeah, that was the first time and it's it's been so much fun Cause I've gone to every all-star game since 1999, except for one, uh, the year my daughter was born. I couldn't make it to that one because I wanted to. You know, stay married Good idea.

Speaker 2: 5:48

But you know, so I went to that all-star game in 99, and that was Boston, and I remember that that was Ted Williams on the field and everyone was not scripted circled around Ted Williams because you know he was closing in the end of his life and they knew there wasn't much time. I think Tony Gwynn was the impetus for that.

Speaker 1: 6:09

To be at.

Speaker 2: 6:09

Fenway Park for the All-Star game, and that that was my first All-Star game, also the first Futures game. I wasn't covering Prospects only then, but it was still the first Futures game ever. Alfonso Soriano hit two homers in that game.

Speaker 1: 6:21

No way. So how did it morph into the prospects?

Speaker 2: 6:29

You know, I was kind of just a national major league writer for a few years and I always liked writing about prospects when I could. I started going to the Arizona Fall League, probably by 2000. We started doing regular coverage there and the draft has been big on the website even from way back then. So I always liked doing those stories. And you know, it was a couple of years after we moved here. I moved here to Pittsburgh in the fall of 01. And after 2002, before 2003, I was like you know, we had we had hired a whole bunch more staff. We had some really good national writers. We had we had hired a whole bunch more staff, we had some really good national writers and we had this little page for prospects. We didn't have someone dedicated to doing it. I was, like you know, we could probably find enough to write about. I had no idea what you know Pandora's box I was opening there, but so it was.

Speaker 2: 7:20

2003 was the first time I shifted to just doing the prospects and the draft, and that's what I've been doing since.

Speaker 1: 7:27

How different is that? Because I wonder about you watching major league games during a summer. You're a draft guru, isn't your mind always thinking about prospects? Sure, how much attention are you paying to a major league game? Not?

Speaker 2: 7:47

that much and, truth be told, when I come and I'm in the clubhouse here at PNC Park even, it's usually just to say hello to guys that I knew when they were in high school or beyond, and I first met Neil Walker his senior year at Pine Richland High School, you know, or beyond, and I first met Neil Walker his senior year at Pine Richland high school, for instance, and we've had a relationship ever since. Um, and there are it's not just Pittsburgh guys. So, like it, it it's great Cause I can go and I can say hello to them and chat with them, but I don't need to talk to them, I don't need to interview them. So there's no pressure there, I don't need anything. Job wise, everyone's on a blue moon. There's something I'm working on, but for the most part it's just to catch up with people that I knew, you know, before they made it to the big leagues and there tends to be, you know, an appreciation, because I was telling their story before anyone who knew who they were.

Speaker 1: 8:42

Do they? They do appreciate that. Yeah, for the most part. Yeah, not everyone.

Speaker 2: 8:48

And you know I make it a practice not to.

Speaker 2: 8:52

You know I don't rip people Like I'll be critical, you know, and I'm always wrong, right, there are guys that I think are going to be great prospects, who make it, who don't make it, and vice versa, guys I don't know, and then they end up being all-stars and things like that, and I'll always admit when we're wrong about it.

Speaker 2: 9:09

But for the most part when you get to talk to a guy, even if he's going to be a top-of-the-first-round kind of player before anyone else, like at length, they're going to remember that. And I've gotten, you know, some appreciations from major superstars who are like, hey, you're the first one who wrote anything about me ever and they do tend to remember that, which is surprising because the amount of people who you know come into their atmosphere over the course of a long career. So I try to foster those and continue those relationships when I can. So if I'm at a big league game, I love watching the game, you know so. But it's not I don't have to worry about covering it or writing about it or what angle would I take or anything like that. I can just. I can just watch a major league game.

Speaker 1: 10:03

You say there's no pressure just sitting there watching a game because you don't have to write about the game. What pressure is there for you? Because your job is kind of like? I mean, it's a crapshoot, right, draft, any sport, for the most part Baseball more than any other, I agree. So what pressure is there on Jonathan Mayo to say this guy's going to be a big leaguer in five years?

Speaker 2: 10:27

And then he fizzles out. I think it's some of it is just pressure we put on ourselves. Yes, we want it to be right. Sure, and you know, greg, there are.

Speaker 2: 10:37

There are different ways that people who do what I do go about it. There are those who do it based on what they see. Okay, do what I do go about it. There are those who do it based on what they see. They go out and evaluate and their reports are based on what they see. And that's not how we do it.

Speaker 2: 10:53

I'm a reporter and I always have been. Now I've seen enough baseball where if someone's talking to me about a guy or I'm trying to decide do I rank this guy second or third or, more likely, 20th or 21st? I may have an opinion based on what I've seen. But one I don't have time to go see everybody. And two, I'm going to trust the guys whose job it is to evaluate them for major league teams, so, whether it's the Pirates top 30 or our draft rankings, I'm talking to scouts. And for team top 30s, I'm talking to farm directors and pro scouting directors, and so I'm a collector and collator of information.

Speaker 2: 11:30

So we try to be as thorough and robust as possible so that when we put out a list, it reflects what the industry as a whole is thinking. And I I think every single year that we get completely right Now. Does that mean that we're always going to be right about a prospect? No, just like, the industry isn't always right. I'm not throwing blame at their feet because we'll be like, oh, I really like this guy, so we'll have a team that does it. We'll move a guy up and down based on what we saw in the fall league or wherever. But, like I said a while ago, I'll always admit that we're going to be wrong a lot of the time, in both directions.

Speaker 1: 12:12

So, Jonathan, based on that because you're talking to scouting directors, farm directors, baseball people, throughout the industry, and if you're doing a Pirate Top 30, you're basically collaborating with others to decide, this is probably you probably wouldn't get much argument then if you polled everybody yeah, that looks, because that's what you've done. So the question is, if a team let's face it, the pirates get criticized for draft picks that don't work out, but is it fair to say that most teams would have done what the pirates did anyway? It's. In other words, you can't blame the. You want to blame the pirates, maybe blame over the years. I'm not blaming this specific regime, but over the years there have been draft picks for every team that fizzles out. You could probably blame development or sometimes players just don't work out. That's just the way it is. There's no guarantees, right I? Or sometimes players just don't work out. That's just the way it is. There are no guarantees.

Speaker 2: 13:05

Right. I mean, even in the draft you're talking about an 18-year-old or a 21-year-old and you don't know necessarily what's going to happen. You try to do all the work possible to mitigate that risk, but it's so subjective, even when you're doing it with all the tools that you're given. You know, and I'm a firm believer, that every team needs to have some combination of the old fashioned scouting with your eyes and all the data and analytics that are at their fingertips. Now, if you leave one out of the door and one out of the door and only focusing on the one side in either direction, you're not getting the fullest picture possible. You have a whole toolbox. Use all the tools. So I think, because it's so hard to get it right and then forget about the international guys. Oh boy, o'neal Cruz was six feet tall when he first signed.

Speaker 2: 14:08

Yeah. So you just don't know how it's going to go, even from a physical maturation point. But the reason why I talk about it you may have data and analytics that say, boy, this guy really knows how to play. The numbers in college are unbelievable.

Speaker 2: 14:21

But if you're not watching how it goes about it, if you don't go and visit in the home, if you don't get a sense of what makes them tick, you don't know what's going to happen when they're away from, either away from home, if they're high schoolers, or away from that friendly environment of college and riding the buses for hours in the low levels of the minors for 140 games. You never know until they go do it. But the more you can know you peek under the hood, so to speak the better sense you're going to get on that sort of makeup piece. And if you're ignoring the old-fashioned scouting and evaluation, you may miss that. And, conversely, if you ignore the analytics and data and you're doing it based on like oh, I really like that swing, like there's so much information out there now, especially from a hitting standpoint, but also on the mound, that you need to enter that into your calculus to to try to mitigate that risk. So you hope to get it right.

Speaker 1: 15:17

That.

Speaker 2: 15:17

that's that's there now, even at the high school levels, the available yeah, I mean not like not nationally, but there's so much more in terms of showcases, travel teams, like high level travel teams. So not only are you getting data, but you're getting it against good competition. Um, you know, usa baseball now does this national high school invitational and that's a team tournament and it's it depends on where the teams are from. But then you get to see the top draft prospects in a team setting, as opposed to a showcase where sometimes you may get a guy who look is what they look like and great BP, great infield outfit, but doesn't have the feel for the game. To see them in a in a team game setting where you're trying to win a game, as opposed to, you know, an all American game where it's a one and done and you're really just trying to showcase your own abilities. So there's a lot more information. It's not as prevalent as it is in college, but there's a good amount out there.

Speaker 1: 16:18

So about 25 years of watching this at the amateur level, looking at high school players, college players, what do you think has been the biggest, aside from analytics? The game and the player? What's changed? Or is it pretty much the same that you've noticed over time?

Speaker 2: 16:36

Well, I mean, one of the fascinating things about baseball for me is that the game is the same. Yeah, I just think the players everyone's just so much bigger, stronger and faster. You see it, when they get to the big leagues. Yeah, the fact that someone like Paul Skeens can come and just step right in and you know, and that happens. That's happened for years and years where someone you know and maybe he's an outlier, yeah, but I see more and more, even guys in high school who look like big leaguers, and I don't mean like physically maxed out and they can't. You know, there's still projection and they can get bigger and stronger. But because it's become a year-round thing, then you could argue the pros and cons of that, but because of that, I just think that you get players who have a much more advanced feel and can sort of hit the ground running, which is probably a good thing, since those lower short season levels in the minor leagues don't exist anymore.

Speaker 1: 17:36

Well, so we've heard the argument that the players aren't as athletic, maybe, as they used to be. They don't to your point. They don't play all the sports like they used to. So many baseball people have encouraged players to play all the sports. They don't do that. It's a year-round thing, but that doesn't mean the players are worse because of it.

Speaker 2: 18:03

It's hard to know, right? I think it's like with any argument when you're trying to compare players across generations. How do you compare Shohei otani to willie mays? I don't know how you do that, can you, you know?

Speaker 2: 18:16

uh, statistically is really the only way you can do it now I think in every generation there are those players that you get the sense they would be incredible, no matter where they were. You know, willie Mays, with the strength and conditioning advancements that we've seen now, my goodness right, it's crazy. So I do think it's a shame that there are fewer multi-sport athletes who end up in baseball. I know that's something baseball's tried to address, but you can't. You can't force it. They have to want to play the sport.

Speaker 2: 18:55

But I always appreciate when I talk to scouting directors and GMs who kind of covet and value those multi-sport guys, even if it means that it may take them a little bit longer in the minors to get to the big leagues and this is a success-oriented business. So that can take some courage. But I appreciate the teams that want to look at players like that. The Pirates and Bubba Chandler, I think, is a really good example where they're like we're betting on this athlete and once we focus him in he's going to take off. And they were right in this case. It seems Pirate fans are going to find out this year but it doesn't always work out. But I think I'd rather be wrong on that guy than the safer bet. But I'm also not the one writing the checks to them.

Speaker 1: 19:46

So it's easy for me to say by the way, because you live in Pittsburgh, and you, how did you end up coming to Pittsburgh, by the way, in 2001,? My wife is a Taylor Alderice high school grad, that there's the answer there. There we have it. Yeah, she grew up here. Well so, but you grew up a Yankee or Mets fan. Yes, really. Yeah, equally it depended, so who was winning? The yankees?

Speaker 2: 20:10

well so. So when I first came into baseball consciousness, it was when the yankees won back-to-back world series in the late 70s and I always kind of liked both of them. But honestly, it was when daryl strawberry got called up, and I always bring this up because they were still terrible.

Speaker 1: 20:28

It wasn't when they got good, okay, they got good. The next year Fair.

Speaker 2: 20:31

Because Gooden came up the year after that but I'd never seen. I didn't remember Reggie Jackson enough for me to think, oh, like that guy, that you need to stop and watch every at-bat. And then, when Strawberry came up, you wanted to watch every at bat because you didn't know what was going to happen. It was such a majestic swing and he could do things you'd never seen before. So that's when I sort of shifted.

Speaker 1: 20:57

So I like both teams. Well, when you watch O'Neal Cruz, you must think here's a guy that looks like he.

Speaker 2: 21:03

You want to stop and watch.

Speaker 1: 21:05

Right, yeah, he's one of those rare players. You've got to stop and watch this guy.

Speaker 2: 21:12

Not just when he's in the batter's box Anytime, especially because he's still figuring it out. It's sort of fascinating because you'll see him one time and it looks like it's the first time he's held a baseball. He looks lost. I saw him in the Fall League when he played and he was tired and he was just like you know and it showed and it was like wow, I don't know about you know. And then there are times where he's the most electric player in baseball, or at least on that short list Do you it's hard not to because you live here.

Speaker 1: 21:45

Kind of rude for the Pirates then I would think even though you grew up a Yankee Mets fan, you don't want to say that. I can say that I mean, yeah, sure, I'm not kidding.

Speaker 2: 21:54

Naturally, of course, I root for the Pirates. I haven't rooted for a team like really rooted for a team since I was a kid.

Speaker 2: 22:18

Sometimes it's an occupational hazard. Yeah, you know the business that we're in. When you find a player who's good at talking, that matters more, and I know the rest of the media would talk to him more. So when, when Michael A Taylor got here and I knew Michael back from when he was a prospect, he's so great to talk to and I'm like, and he's had a good big league career Don't get me wrong. There are guys that I've talked to who never really made it. I'm like, oh, that at playing because they were so great to talk to. And so my list of like my favorite all-time players are all like guys who are really great interviews.

Speaker 1: 22:53

So it's a little skewed and any couple that come to mind, one or two, even if they didn't make it.

Speaker 2: 23:00

Yeah, or is there something that you're doing Well? So there are a few. There are a few Like Taylor Trammell, one of my favorite interviews of all time. I think it was his first full year, he was still with the Reds and we would do an interview in every spring training stop. So I did the interview and then we sat and talked for another 45 minutes to the point where I was kind of like, don't you have to do something? And he was done for the day. It was early.

Speaker 2: 23:23

It was before games and things like that he was like no, I'm good he was 19. Maybe he was 20. And to this day I mean I haven't run, unfortunately. I haven't run into him. So he's pretty high up there. Malik Smith, I don't know if you remember him.

Speaker 1: 23:40

Oh yeah, I remember him Tremendous talker Brett Phillips. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:43

So everyone knows his personality now, so everyone knows his personality.

Speaker 1: 23:46

He's legit. The other two, jonathan. Some guys aren't necessarily legit. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 23:53

Some guys do it to do it for the show or for the good write-up. The beautiful thing, greg, is that when I talk to them, no one knows who they are, so they're not.

Speaker 1: 23:59

Yeah, you know from the ground. I know You're not putting on an air.

Speaker 2: 24:02

I think I'm getting a sense of who they are, and of who they are, and I'm not typically doing it in front of a camera.

Speaker 1: 24:06

It's, you know it's audio.

Speaker 2: 24:08

Yeah, um, but so Brett Phillips and I did. I remember why once did a like a podcast. We did an entire episode and we just sat in the dugout and we talked for an hour. It was crazy and uh, so he. So he's great. There's, there's, there's a few more. I think the probably my favorite of the guys who really really made it is Julio Rodriguez. Oh wow, and he obviously and I knew it was coming, but he was so great to talk to in English. From a very early age. That's when I knew I'm like this is a special kid who understood that that was an important piece. And he's the one I kind of hint, hinted at him, who thanked me for being the first person to ever write anything about him, and that really hit me because he's I mean, he's as big as there is and I like I hope he has a full healthy season because he's so exciting to watch.

Speaker 2: 25:03

So I think I think he's the one, but I mean the list goes on and on. I mean I talked to Andrew McCutcheon when he was 19 for the first time. So he recorded a video for my son's bar mitzvah montage.

Speaker 1: 25:18

Oh my gosh. So, yeah, when would that have been?

Speaker 2: 25:25

So he's 23 now. He's coming in 24 for 11 years ago.

Speaker 1: 25:30

So he was established in the big leagues?

Speaker 2: 25:31

Oh, he was established in the big leagues, but I felt I could ask him yeah, Because I also knew that he could be like no, and then I'd be fine with it. And then, of course, I had to get him to do one for my daughter because I didn't want her to be a. She's not as big of a. She's a baseball fan, but not as much as my son, who played.

Speaker 1: 25:46

She's a big McCutcheon fan now, oh, absolutely, what about Jonathan, in terms of? Okay, so you're going around, you're talking to different people, you've got maybe somebody under the radar that you think you've got a hunch about this guy? Is there somebody? Over the years that you hit, you made it? You know what man you can pat yourself on the back, even though that's not necessarily what you normally do.

Speaker 2: 26:18

There really aren't that many surprises maybe no, there are always surprises. You're counting on my institutional memory, which is awful. So I'm sure there are guys who and sometimes it's we don't rank them too high because we don't get that kind of feedback. But I'm kind of like that guy is kind of interesting. I'm not sure what he's going to be, but I have a feeling he's going to be pretty good, and I can't think of one right now. Well, you may even track it yourself.

Speaker 1: 26:45

You may not come out boldly and say something based on the. You may track it yourself. You may not come out boldly and say something based on the, you may track it yourself.

Speaker 2: 26:49

No, because, like I said, because that's what I do.

Speaker 1: 26:50

A lot of times I'm a sport training. I go to the Pirate City, yeah, and these guys are coming up. I'll watch some games and I'm thinking to myself who is that guy? And keep so. Who's on the top of?

Speaker 2: 27:03

your list. Well, it's not that, I'm afraid to toot my own horn because I will, but I just can't think of somebody who I was like. Oh, and sometimes it's guys who end up being like a utility guy.

Speaker 1: 27:15

Yeah, that's one thing.

Speaker 2: 27:17

I'll give you an example, and I can't even take credit for them because I wasn't even necessarily doing their list at the time. I don't remember, but I remember I saw Tommy Edmund play.

Speaker 1: 27:29

Oh, that's a good one.

Speaker 2: 27:30

In State College.

Speaker 2: 27:32

Wow I did like over the years I would do a couple of broadcasts for, like the I forget the affiliate out there Central PA. They would do some State College Spikes games and I saw it was his summer debut. I think he went five for five so it was easy to be like huh and to me I remember thinking like he is the quintessential Cardinals prospect, where he's never going to rank super high. He doesn't have like the wow tools but I'm like he's going to be a better big leaguer than he is a prospect and the Cardinals are good at that.

Speaker 1: 28:06

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:07

And they got another one coming, Thomas Segese.

Speaker 1: 28:10

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:10

Who's kind of an under-the-radar rookie of the year candidate to keep an eye on, because I think he's got a chance to play. But they're really good at finding those guys and the way they teach it. But this was his first summer so I'm like all right, he can run a little bit At. But this was his first summer so I'm like all right, he can run a little bit. At the time I'm like he can play shortstop. It wasn't clear whether he would stick it short, but I was like he's going to be a big leaguer and not a lot of people. You know he was, I think, a sixth rounder.

Speaker 1: 28:50

It wasn't like a, you know, I mean the book that you referenced and lucky and lucky.

Speaker 2: 28:53

Yep, yeah, talking about guys like uh, albert pools yeah, joey vato, yeah, uh, guys who were I mean, vato was a second rounder, but it still was not too many people had that high degrom, mookie betts, yeah, lorenzo kane, um, guys like that. So I love stories like like this and uh, you know I missed the uh, some of those were before my time ranking guys and some of them we like we missed on. You know, jacob DeGrom came so fast. They were like what happened?

Speaker 2: 29:18

Yeah, yeah Cause you know he had Tommy John surgery right away and and then you know he he shot through with Mookie Betts, was a guy that we almost didn't have time to rank appropriately because he had one huge year. There's a guy in the Red Sox system now, christian Campbell, who is kind of Mookie Betts 2.0. Fourth round pick, probably a second baseman, but you're not sure, and first full year went from high A to triple A. He may be their opening day second baseman and he was not on the Red Sox top 30 to start the 2024 season and without I'm not looking at it right now I think he's number eight on the top 100 overall list right now.

Speaker 1: 29:53

That is crazy, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there are guys like that all the time. I love guys. So for me again, not patting myself on the back by any stretch, but thinking about guys that just came to the organization you're watching early One that comes to mind was like Josh Harrison.

Speaker 1: 30:08

When that trade was made with the Cubs he was like an afterthought Right, and they'll never say that these teams, I understand it. The other trade was like for Ascanio, a pitcher, a couple other pitchers, and then there was Josh Harrison with the Cub deal. But he's like the little engine that could and the heart, the drive, the desire, and then ends up becoming an everyday player at some position. And Adam Frazier was another guy who they kind of talked down about when he got to and then they started playing him out in left field different positions. I thought, well, what if you put him maybe at second base, stuck him there every day, just see what happens. Because I don't think we realize, fans, how difficult it is to succeed when you first get to the big leagues at anything, but then to be asked to start bouncing around different positions. Well, the issues. I haven't done it well, right.

Speaker 2: 30:58

Yeah, that's the guys who have done it. And then I think nowadays a lot of systems they encourage encourage guys around.

Speaker 2: 31:05

Well, I think you have to because, I mean, my favorite about that was Trevor Story when he was coming up with the Rockies and the Rockies were early on a team that would have guys play all three infield positions and the funny thing about Trevor Story is they're like well, you don't know if he's going to be a shortstop, but we're going to. You know, we want him to keep his athleticism. He's going to play short, we want him to have all three because we think the bat's going to play and you want to make sure that if the bat's ready, we have options right to plug them in. Now it happened that it was right when Tulo got hurt and then was gone, you know, and he ended up playing shortstop and ended up being a better shortstop than people expected.

Speaker 2: 31:45

But you know, I think if you teach it early, there are some guys who like moving around. They like this sort of especially. You know, some of them are like I like not knowing where I'm going to be. It keeps them out of their head. Other people are like I don't mind moving around, but I'd like to know ahead of time where I'm going to be. So I think it's like knowing the personalities of players helps. But yeah, having a guy who hadn't moved around and then suddenly you're like, hey, we need you to move around, that's a trickier. I think you start to do that a lot more.

Speaker 1: 32:16

like you said. Certainly the Pirates do that. They love bouncing guys. The other argument is when you try to bounce guys around, then they never have a position. There's never really a set lineup and I understand both arguments. You talk about watching guys and great stories and talk about analytics and needing scouting, and both numbers and they have to converge. You can't have one without the other these days. Age-old question now last few years is it a really fine balance where analytics, you don't want it to be too pervasive in the game, right?

Speaker 2: 33:00

No, you don't want it to take over.

Speaker 2: 33:02

We don't want it to become like the baseball version of Terminator, where the machines run everything yeah yeah, because it's still human beings playing the sport and not only knowing, like to the point I made earlier, what makes them tick in terms of handling adversity, things like that, and you never can be sure until they go out and do it, even if you scout them really well. But how they react to baseball situations right, they're not. They're not not board game pieces or video game animations that someone else is controlling. They still need to go and know where to be on a on a cutoff play in deep right field when there's a play at third, and those things that are so unique to baseball that you can't just use numbers to predict what's going to happen.

Speaker 2: 33:58

I think that all of the data is good. I just think that if you lean too heavily in that direction, it's not great and I'll get on a soapbox that my colleague, jim Callison I get on all the time, for instance, is every team has a model for the draft and they'll plug a player in and there's all these variables that they'll use to say, well, whether we should value this guy, and age is a big indicator. So if you have a kid who's already 19 come draft time, there are teams that won't consider that player full stop and certainly not in the first round, and I always wondered about that. Because that same player and I understand it, because they're a little older, depending on where they are playing high school the competition there's a big difference between 19 and 18. They'll be draft-eligible sophomores in two years and teams salivate over that guy. Now you have two years of college data, so I understand the data reason, but I'm like boy, that's a.

Speaker 2: 35:00

Brett Beatty is a big example, the one I always I kind of always think of and juries out in terms of what kind of big leaguer is going to be. But this is a guy that there were teams that were like we won't, we won't even consider him. In the first round, the Mets took him 13th overall. Whatever it was, he was in the big leagues at age 22. That's young for the level right. So I think that you can go sort of too full on and the teams that like only believe in the model and won't say like, use the model, it's fine, and they're always constantly tweaking it as a guideline.

Speaker 2: 35:32

Use it as a like with any of these things.

Speaker 1: 35:33

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:34

Use it as one of those tools, yes, and if all things are being equal, and player A the model likes and player B the model doesn't like, sure, take player A, but to completely cast off player B because he might be a little too old, like I think you owe it to yourself, well, let's dig in a little bit more. What are the swing that we like? Where was he playing? I mean, brett Beatty was a Texas high schooler.

Speaker 1: 35:58

He wasn't playing in Michigan with all due respect to Michigan, but the baseball's different.

Speaker 2: 36:07

I think that you can get a little short-sighted because of all the data, so as long as you don't get blinded by it, it can be extremely valuable because it is a predictor.

Speaker 1: 36:17

So the game's okay in that respect. Right now Do you think too much is made about people griping about numbers and stats and analytics?

Speaker 2: 36:26

I think when it becomes a problem, or when teams decide that they don't need as many scouts or even instructors because we can get all the data and figure out what's going on, and that that seems to be a cyclical thing, greg. So I, I don't know that it's a problem that's so embedded that we they can't come back from it. It swings back and forth and so, like this offseason, unfortunately, was one of the swings where a lot of teams got rid of a lot of people. Yeah, and I always think that's a shame and it's short-sighted. And then eventually they'll realize oh wait, you know, we haven't been like. Our farm system's not doing well, we're not getting guys to the big leagues, and then they'll that's a great comeback.

Speaker 2: 37:14

Then we'll rehire all that. We'll rehire those people. Someone who's been in the game longer than me and who's smarter than me and that sort of thing said he goes it always the pendulum always shifts back and forth. Now maybe the, the reins that the pendulum swings in is a little bit different, yeah, so it's a little shifted more in that sort of data direction. I think it's okay, as long as teams don't completely lose sight of the importance of still need those eyes on the game, right eyes on the game and that it's human beings playing it.

Speaker 1: 37:45

Hey, what did you enjoy more? Writing a book or producing a film?

Speaker 2: 37:50

Ah, well, the, the writing the book and so producing the film. I got a producer credit because it was my basic idea, but you were involved.

Speaker 1: 38:04

Oh, I was already involved and they were silly enough to put me in it. You deserve it.

Speaker 2: 38:08

Well, no, I earned.

Speaker 1: 38:09

The producer credit, don't get me wrong.

Speaker 2: 38:11

Yeah, but I mean that was so much fun. That was not one of those things I had on my bucket list Writing a book kind of was as a writer was not one of those things I had on my bucket list. Writing a book kind of was. As a writer, I've now written two over the course of 15 years. My other one was in 2008, but uh that one was what uh, it was called facing clements, it was a, that's right, it was a book.

Speaker 2: 38:33

That wasn't my idea, like that editor came to me with it. But each chapter was talking to hitters about the challenge of facing roger clements, so it was fun. But this smart, wrong and lucky was my idea, so it was my baby. So I had a little more invested in the film was my idea, but I'm not a filmmaker. I have a friend who now.

Speaker 1: 38:52

The film, by the way, is about team Israel in the world baseball classic, the 2017 world baseball classic and the, the.

Speaker 2: 38:58

The concept of that was kind of like, because I'm Jewish and I'm always fascinated with who the Jewish players are. I'm like, well, let's dig into. Like these players who are like, yes, I'm happy to be known, I embrace being known as a Jewish baseball player and the Jewish community, painting with a broad brush like loves baseball and loves who the Jewish baseball players are, and they kind of take them in as family. So I'm like, well, let's dig in. What do these players think about it? And a lot of them aren't religious or anything like that. So let's take them to israel. Well, what a better way, let's let them dig in. And we thought that was gonna be the whole thing and we're gonna go to the world baseball classic and the climactic scene will be the first pitch. Look, they made it there, yeah, and then they won games and then it turned into a Cinderella story.

Speaker 2: 39:42

That is so great and as my friend the filmmaker said is they went from a short film to a full-length documentary because of all that and my friend, who's the filmmaker I've known since you know we were 15, 14. And we went to Jewish sleepaway camp together. So that came together and was kind of crazy confluence of events and it was a blast. So the idea was mine, I did a lot of the talking to the players and I'm in it and things like that. But the book is really like my so I probably feel a little more connected.

Speaker 2: 40:16

Well, I don't feel more connected to it, but it was more my thing. The the film, just as my like my Jewish self and my baseball self coming together is not something I ever could have imagined would happen, so it's pretty cool.

Speaker 1: 40:29

It is fascinating. I've got some really good Jewish friends and sometimes I'll, you know, call them or text them. I said, you know, I think he might be a Jewish player and he said no, he's not or he is. And I looked at at the. The pirates have a great history and legacy of, of course, hank greenberg, yeah, uh. But you think over the years, and they just got the spencer horowitz.

Speaker 1: 40:49

Spencer horowitz, yeah I say jay horowitz spencer horowitz, jay, jay, I got, I got, I got burned by that. By the way, I believe that oh I did too did you?

Speaker 2: 40:59

yeah, but I went on the air with it in spring training.

Speaker 1: 41:02

I went on the air and somebody said you know, that is not Jay's grandson.

Speaker 2: 41:05

So Jay Horowitz was a long time he was the PR guy for the Mets and totally would tweet without any wink wink saying that that's his grandson. And the thing is like so typically it's Horowitz, h-o-r-o-w-i-t-z, but both of them spell it Horowitz.

Speaker 1: 41:25

Oh, I didn't even realize that.

Speaker 2: 41:27

That's what made it kind of believable.

Speaker 1: 41:28

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 41:29

And I'm like sure why not. And the funny thing is, so there's a really good prospect with the Baltimore Orioles.

Speaker 1: 41:34

Not Jewish, but his name is Kobe Mayo yeah.

Speaker 2: 41:38

He's another guy who could be a rookie of the year candidate this year, assuming he plays every day. I have periodically sort of like yeah, that's my nephew and I won't say yes or no if people ask me directly. But there have been enough times where I make it clear he's not really my nephew. I got a picture with him in spring training a few years ago.

Speaker 2: 41:56

I'm like what family reunion so there are a few people out there like is he really? Because I did have someone like hey, if he's your nephew, does that mean he could play for team israel? So I'm like, no, he, no, he cannot.

Speaker 1: 42:09

But thanks for asking that is great, but it is true about the, the pirates over the years, about different players and ike davis, yeah, being being one who was prominently featured in your film with that we have your home run call in the movie I'm actually gonna have to ask spencer, we should bring uh back uh the muzzle tub.

Speaker 1: 42:28

Yeah, I have to do that, but uh, it it's. I asked you before about you're rooting for the pirates and how you, when you're in town you live here you kind of have to essentially become a fan of, certainly a fan of the city and the team. We always ask Jonathan, withhold my cutter. What brings all of this together is the stories of how people got to where they, the passion people have now that you're a Pittsburgher, and what makes Pittsburgh unique, whether it's sports or anything else. Do you have a thought about that, and is it unique in your mind?

Speaker 2: 43:05

I think it is unique. I've never seen anything like it, for a whole host of reasons and I'll tell a few stories. So, from a sports standpoint, the ballpark down the road from where we are right now, and you've been around baseball. If you want to argue, there are others that are maybe as good. Okay, there isn't one better, there isn't one better, and maybe I know we're biased and I know the press box is 4 million miles up in the sky, but boy, what a view. So that's part of it and the love of sports in general. You know, for a city that's not New York, you know it's a smaller city, I think the, the people are genuine. That's not unique, that's not the only place, but it's not. The thing that's kind of interesting about Pittsburgh to me is like it's not East coast, it's not Midwest, I don't know what it is.

Speaker 2: 44:03

I don't know what you call it, it's its own thing, but probably I mean honestly I think the biggest thing is the accent and I remember my wife, you know, who grew up here and she does a fantastic Pittsburgh accent Does she?

Speaker 2: 44:14

She doesn't when she talks normally and she would do it. And I always thought like oh, it's a little bit of a caricature. And I remember one of the times we were visiting cause her parents were lifelong Pittsburghers I think third or fourth generation. And uh, and we were in the strip district and we're just walking them and somebody walks in and sounded exactly like my wife's imitation and I stopped dead in my tracks I was like you gotta be kidding me. So I did make her promise that if we moved here our kids would not speak that way. But I love it. I mean, it's one of those things that you hear it. And even my mom was a lifelong New Yorker and then in New Jersey and she retired. She moved here 20 plus years ago Once she retired to be close to her grandkids. She will be someplace else and she'll hear the accent. She's like are you from pittsburgh? And people will be like how do you know?

Speaker 1: 45:04

we're like really, are you serious you?

Speaker 2: 45:07

know I love it. I mean, I mean, where else would myron cope be, someone people would want to listen to? And yet when we would come to visit and we would put on steelers games and my father-in-law, who was a huge Steelers fan, would turn the TV volume down and turn the radio up. And the first time I listened to it I'm like why are we doing this? And then you have to listen, you had to, right, couldn't help it, right.

Speaker 2: 45:30

So I, I think you know, I'm sure every city has those characters, those, uh, the, those accents, both in terms of language and just what makes the, the hills and and things like the topography here, so interesting. It's just, it's a really interesting place that I had never been to before I met my wife, so it wasn't like one of these places I had been to. I'm like, oh sure, we'll go to Pittsburgh, my wife, so it wasn't like one of these places I had been to. I'm like, oh sure, we'll go to Pittsburgh. And obviously we visited a bunch before we moved here, but I didn't know anything about, like, a lot of people not from Pittsburgh. My knowledge of Pittsburgh was, you know, the 70s Steelers.

Speaker 1: 46:11

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:12

And Footloose. I'm not Footloose.

Speaker 1: 46:16

Well, yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:17

No no.

Speaker 1: 46:18

Footloose was here, wasn't?

Speaker 2: 46:19

it. No, no, footloose was here, wasn't it? Footloose is a Kevin Bacon movie.

Speaker 1: 46:22

Oh, boy Leonard Lee. Can you help us out with the movie?

Speaker 2: 46:28

no, no she's in the steel mill and she gets the dancing audition.

Speaker 1: 46:33

That's not Footloose that's not Footloose.

Speaker 2: 46:36

Footloose is Kevin Bacon and John Lithgow's the Reverend. This is terrible.

Speaker 1: 46:41

I know I can't believe it. I'll be so mad.

Speaker 2: 46:44

I know the song I'm a maniac, maniac. I can sing all the songs from it.

Speaker 1: 46:50

Flash dance. Thank you, Leonard Lee.

Speaker 2: 46:53

I apologize to the people of Pittsburgh and to the filmmakers that made that classic, I think there was this image of the steel town and things like that, and that was all I knew about Pittsburgh. Maybe the Fish to Save Pittsburgh?

Speaker 1: 47:13

I probably saw that movie.

Speaker 2: 47:15

But I really didn't know much about it at all. I mean, I remember the pirates and the Stargill stars and things like that when I was a kid, but I'd never been here. So I love it here. I raised a family here and my kids are kind of grown, but we're still here and not planning on going anywhere anytime soon, Isn't it?

Speaker 1: 47:38

interesting. I don't know if you've had this experience where you have people who may have not visited Pittsburgh recently out-of-town friends, family, whatnot and they come to Pittsburgh Fans have talked about this before they come and PNC Park's been a destination and I sometimes will bring up clients or fans up into the booth to show them. And I never knew what a great city this was.

Speaker 2: 47:58

Had this, this idea, the old smoky city, right steel I mean, it's even in the time that we've been here and I'll, you know, be honest, when, when we first moved here, we we had been in in new york, we lived in brooklyn, where you fall out of bed and there are 400 restaurants, and when we first came here, we're like, what did we do? Yeah, uh, because it was. You know, I won't say it was sleepy in 2001, it had 2001. It wasn't the old sooty steel city that my mother-in-law would talk about, but it was not the scene that it is now and it's changed so much, mostly for the good. Anytime there's development like that, you worry about it but seeing it evolve over time. But it's such a manageable place to be and I love. My kids were able to grow up here and we live in the city. So it's interesting.

Speaker 2: 48:58

I'd never been in a place where you have neighborhoods, where you have a house and a yard, but you're actually in the city. I grew up in suburban New Jersey so my idea of city was New York. Then I went to college in West Philadelphia. Philadelphia is a city city. To get that neighborhood-y feel you had to go out to the suburbs. You can have all of it here.

Speaker 1: 49:21

It's been great, it's great. And one of my favorite things about the city of Pittsburgh is that a guy that's become a yinzer, he calls himself a. He combines y'all and yinzer with these y'alls. It's Michael McHenry. We'll toast to him.

Speaker 2: 49:38

We will.

Speaker 1: 49:39

And we'll look forward to having him back on his show one of these days.

Speaker 2: 49:42

by the way, I hope so, didn't he?

Speaker 1: 49:44

encourage you to come on, hold my Cutter.

Speaker 2: 49:46

He has been talking to me about this. For how long has this show been going?

Speaker 1: 49:49

on now A good year plus. Yeah, this is like show number 75 already.

Speaker 2: 49:53

From the get-go.

Speaker 1: 49:54

So the fact that it took 75 shows to have me on Michael shame on you, but anyway shame on you, and now I finally come and he's not here but it's all good and it made for a better program. I got to use his mug, yeah, his mug. Thank you, jonathan thank you, greg.

Speaker 2: 50:06

It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 1: 50:06

I really enjoyed it see you next time I'll hold my cutter.